Author Topic: Starts...  (Read 9110 times)

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Offline John

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« on: December 09, 2003, 08:14:16 AM »
Yo,

Let's start a new topic here. How do ya do an optimized start! There are some different techniques... Any suggestions?

//John

Offline bigborefan

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« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2003, 08:44:44 AM »
Are you talking race starts or starting the Green Beast' engine.

 For the engine, I put mine in 1st gear, turn on the choke, turn on the fuel petcock. With the bike off of the stand, I then push the bike back and forth for about 30 - 45 second It is really more of a 'Rocking" forward and backward then a "push". You will feel the piston turning over. Bring the kickstarter all the way up, and give a good kickthrough. This charges the cylinder with a fuel air mixture. I learned this from some old dude at Loretta Lynns in 1994. I had a 1994 Honda 500 that would never start. This trick will start your bike on one kick 98% of the time.
2006 KTM 300XC
1994 KX 500 x 2
1991 KX 500
1988 KX 250

Offline John

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« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2003, 10:49:52 PM »
Sorry I wasn't clear. I was more thinking about race starts...

Which gear do you start on, any scientific tests? What about after changing the gearing - start on a different gear? I bet someone here has tested this out. Please let me know.

//John

Rick

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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2003, 06:44:06 AM »
A lot of this is going to depend upon whether you are talking about live engine starts like in motocross or dead engine starts as in off road racing.  If it's off road dead engine starts you want to talk about, we have done a lot of analysis that I can share, and we consistently have great starts.  Just let us know what type of racing, and we can let the games begin.

Rick

Offline John

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« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2003, 10:36:12 PM »
We can have two threads running here; MX + Offroad.

//John

Offline doordie

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« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2003, 05:52:19 AM »
This works for me!

MX :second gear.
Losing time a few meters just from start then win all back later before corner.

Iceracing: second or third gear (depense on gearing).
Long slipping time on clutch.

Offroad with dead engine.
Plz let me know how!  :?
(I?m useless there) :(
Iceroad champion 2006,still 2007,even 2008 without a single race!

Rick

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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2003, 11:49:32 AM »
For Off Road starts, first or second gear really depends upon your final drive ratio.  Given that most folks racing off road gear for higher speed (as is the case on my 500), first gear is the best bet.  When a race has a dead engine start, you have to remember that you are actually beginning to engage the clutch as the motor is starting, so starting in second gear will probably cause the motor to stall (again, depending upon your final ratio).  Also dead engine starts are kind of complicated to master, but I will try and break it down below:

1. Don?t overheat the motor before you are ready to kill the bike for the start.  I have sat beside folks that rev the motor for the last few minutes, only to have precious coolant drain onto the ground.  Since the bike is not moving, no air is flowing through the radiators to cool the liquid, so be gentle.  Just make sure that you clean out the motor with a few revs just before you shut down for the start.

2. As you kill the bike just before the start, there are several things to remember:

     a. Put the bike in first gear BEFORE you shut off the motor, and hold in the clutch.

     b. NEVER kill the motor with the clutch, use only the kill switch.  

     c. Once you kill the bike to wait for the start banner to drop, don?t let out the clutch until the banner drops and the race starts.  When the engine is running with the clutch pulled in and the bike in gear, all of the plates are released.  By letting out the clutch after you kill the bike, some of the plates will stick together, causing additional drag on the motor, and probably result in a multi-kick start.

     d. Be one of the last ones to kill your bike.  You?ll be surprised at the edge this brings in getting the motor to ignite.

     e. Some folks will push the kill switch and open the throttle as the bike dies, thereby loading the cylinder with fuel.  Using this method will depend upon the characteristics of each bike, so you will have to experiment with this and see if it helps get the motor started first kick for your bike.  As a note, I never use this method of flooding the motor with fuel, as I never saw an improvement in starts on any of my bikes.

3. Most off road race starts involve holding the start banner up for 60 seconds.  Here are some issues to remember:

     a. Once the motor is killed, pull out the kick start lever, and make sure it is at top dead center without kicking through the stroke.  Simply push down a little until the kick lever engages the piston at the top of the stroke.  Let the lever lift back to the top, and then engage at the higher lever.  This will give you a good full kick when the banner drops.

     b. Your leg is going to get tired hovering over the kick starter.  Inevitably, at every race, I hear folks getting weak legs, and the kick starter begins to move slowly down towards the peg.  This is bad, as you lose your kick lever position, will probably result in a two kick start.

     c. Find a spot on top of the tank on which you can rest your knee.  This will keep you from having to ?hover? over your kick starter with your foot.  This will also allow you to put a small amount of pressure on the lever to keep it engaged without getting leg fatigue.

4. When the banner drops:

     a. When the banner drops, your leg will naturally drop, starting the bike.

     b. At the same time the bike starts, begin to engage the clutch.  It happens almost simultaneously.

     c. As the bike starts, and the clutch engages, the down force of your right leg on the starter will release the pressure on your left leg, and you can lift it onto the peg.  With practice, this will become subconscious.

     d. Once your left leg hits the peg, the bike is moving forward, and the clutch is fully engaged, your right leg will naturally lift off of the kick lever and find its way to the peg.  Viola, you are in the front of the pack for a dust free race.

5. Additional information:

     a. Don?t get to close to the guy on your left, as you will need to lean a little to the left to get your knee on top of the tank while the banner is up.

     b. Some guys like to use a box or bike stand to help their start.  Since I am 6? 4?, I never needed one.  My youngest son is much shorter, but I have never encouraged him to use a stand on the start, as I have seen the stands get hooked on the foot peg as the race starts.  Not pretty.

     c. If it?s a little cool out, don?t breath out of your nose on the start, as you will fog your lenses.  Instead, protrude your upper lip over your bottom lip and blow down as you exhale.  This will push the warm air out the bottom of your helmet and keep from fogging your lenses.  Also, put your goggles on as late as possible before you shift into first gear and pull in the clutch.

     d. Often, there are three people running the start banner, two holding each side of the banner, and one looking at his watch to track the 60 second banner time.  If there are three people, keep your eye on the guy with the watch, and let your peripheral vision watch the banner.  Almost 100% of the time, the guy with the watch will look up as he says ?Go?.  Remember, he?s tracking seconds, so looking away from the watch is bad.  He will stare at that watch until the 60 seconds are gone.  When he hits 60 seconds he looks up to see the start of the race just like everyone else.  When he looks up, you will also see the banner guys flinch as the banner begins to move down.  By paying attention to the guy with the watch, you can anticipate the dropping of the banner, and will get about a ? second head start.  Not a lot, but enough to edge out the guys next to you, and get the best line for the first 100 yards at least.

     e. If you are not one of the top riders, DON?T start by any of those who are, as you are guaranteed to eat their dust.  Start as far away as possible to get a dust free start.  While you may beat Destry off the line for the first 15 feet, after than all you?ll see is his dust.  I?ve been nervous a couple of times starting next to Ty Davis, but every time I was next to him, he had a multi-kick start.  While he passed me later (and almost everyone else in the event), I didn?t eat his dust on the start.  Multi-kick starts are the enemy.

     f. If there is a breeze, you will almost always want to start upwind so you don?t eat the dust of all the other racers.  The only time this will not be true is if there is moisture in the ground (no dust), or if the upwind start lines have too many danger spots to allow for good speed.

     g. Don?t start with a sagebrush bush in front of you.  Sounds like common sense?  Don?t be too hasty.  Lot?s of folks end up in a start position that distracts them from their objective, in essence, getting out in front fast.  A bush, even a small one, can throw you off balance enough to kill a good start.

     h. Put in a new spark plug for every race, no matter how good you think your plug is.  It makes no sense to pay all the money for bike and gear, entry fees, travel fees, etc., just to have your start ruined by an old plug just to save spending a few dollars.  

6. Finally, chew a piece of gum on the start.  This will keep your mouth moist, and help keep you from getting too nervous.  You can spit it out after the race starts if you want, but I keep chewing all through the race.  I even have one person on gum assignment when I pit to insert a new piece.  I don?t like having a dry mouth, and it really does help with the nerves.

7. More important than anything, HAVE FUN.  You are racing for plastic and wood that will find its way into the attic in short order, so enjoy the experience whether you?re first, second, or the last guy to cross the finish line.  Remember, even the last place guy (or gal) beats all those without the guts to get out there and race.

Good Luck

Rick

Offline doordie

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« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2003, 05:15:00 AM »
Rick!
Thx for awesome tips. :)
Many new tricks there for me to learn,especially the trick with killbutton/clutch. :roll:
I have not dare to have first gear in and the clutch released at the same time,because stalling
the engine,losing the start.I will practice now and see if I can get it to work for me also. :twisted:
I?m a MX-rider for the most with engine running,more easy.
Iceroad champion 2006,still 2007,even 2008 without a single race!

Offline John

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« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2003, 10:53:18 PM »
Rick,

Thanks, this is very useful information!

//John

Rick

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« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2003, 03:31:49 AM »
Sorry it's soooooooo long, but I wanted to be as complete as possible.  Both my son's think I'm nuts with over analyzing things of this nature, but, heh, I'm old, and need every little advantage possible.  I fugure if I can get out front in a dusty race, I have a better chance of staying in front.  A lot of folks never learned how to pass off the trail in the crappy, choppy, dangerous scrub, so they just wait for me to make a mistake...which doesn't happen too often 'cause I go way to slow so I can slid my rear tire from side-to-side to create as much dust as possible. :lol:  :wink: (dang, I missed putting that on the list, but now that's not really a starting tip, but rather a no-passing tip...)

Anyway, Enjoy.

Rick

Offline John

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« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2003, 07:13:36 AM »
Dust, mud and pebbles. Same effect - keeps your competition at a distance...

//John

teamgreen500

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« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2003, 12:48:50 PM »
Rick rules!

A question: Do you ever "Slowly" kick the motor thru a stroke or two to charge the cylinder?

A suggestion: When I'm worried about fogged gogg's (Especially on those occassions where they can get fogged AND dusty!) I either wrap my gogg's in a paper towel and the put them above my visor...OR...when I want to keep'em on, like in the rain, I place a paper towel between the bottom foam of my goog's and my nose and drap it over my nose to force the warm air down thru the bottom of my helmet. This is easy to remove (With your clutch hand!) once under way.

I also use a "No-Fog" type solution on the inside.

Great Post...great advice!

Braaaappppp!

Manny

Rick

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« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2003, 03:43:46 AM »
Manny,

Good call on the paper towel.  Never thought of that before.  

On the goggles, here's another tip.  If it's dusty, while I wait at the start line, I wet my goggles on the front brake resevoir with the lense side up.  This way dust does not fill the inside of the goggles.  I also put a small about of baby oil on the top and side foam to keep dust out while still allowing air in.  Finally, if it's raining, I put my goggles under my chest protector while I wait at the start to keep them dry and close to body temperature.  I've seen some folks with their goggles inside a truck at the start, with a friend handing them over at the last minute.  Great idea to keep them dry, but bad idea for fogging.  The change in temperature from inside a vehicle to the outside air results in no vision.  Same goes for goggles waiting at the pit, keep them in a clear plastic bag outside the vehicle.

RIck

teamgreen500

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« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2003, 07:50:49 AM »
About fogged goggles...and this probably oughta be a new thread:

When your goggles fog up, you should STOP and fix the situation. Here's why...

I got to race my first BITD race with the left side of my body COMPLETELY WRECKED! Purple, Yellow, Blue, Green bruising EVERYWHERE...from ankle to shoulder. My Doctor, who's an Extreme Jock, didn't want me to race...WHY?

Because a week before the race, Manny, the IDIOT, thought he knew where he was on a familiar trail, even though he couldn't SEE(!) well due to FOGGED UP GOGGLES!! :oops:

So, I hit this double...WRONG...it was the Triple! about a 1/4 mile before the Double! But, I was a bit disoriented due to the goggles! Can you say SMACK-DOWN!!! :shock:

Last Thanksgiving I High-Sided at about 50 MPH on a Hi-Speed Down-Hill jump...dislocated shoulder...blah, blah, blah...didn't hurt or scare the HE!! outta me as much as the Foggy-Goggles incident! :roll:

Take Care of your Optics!

Thanks again, Rick, for making the point.

Manny

KX142

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« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2003, 01:09:44 PM »
I race the GNCC's and just wanted to add a few things, I don't know if the're the same for desert racers or not.
One is where to line up on the start. I always take the shortest distance from the start line to the the first turn. This is usually the inside. This is also dependent upon a smooth line into the first corner. Sometimes there are bumps, rocks, or mud in the way. You can't get out front if you get slowed down in a hole.
Another big thing is to hold the power on for about a second longer than you think you can and still make the INSIDE of the first corner. I always shoot for the inside(remember I already was lined up on the inside) of the first turn, thats where the holeshot comes from. This is also a very good place to be very aggressive with the cylinder shaped object in your right hand. At races with a banner held up with short wooden stakes marking the first turn, I usually take the stake out or at least slap it. Use all the track here, it can give you the extra 6 inches that you need to keep from getting pinched off when you are on the inside.
I do like to charge the cylinder with gas when shutting the bike off, it gives the bike a little extra when ignition happens. This enables me to actually let the clutch out while I'm starting to kick the bike and it will not stall. If you watched my rear wheel, it starts turning when my kicker is at about 10 o'clock.
I'll upload some pics of the last couple of GNCC's to the gallery. Check them out, the're good pics of the 500 in action.