Author Topic: ReTorquing Query  (Read 9473 times)

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MarkNZ

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ReTorquing Query
« on: February 08, 2003, 04:03:21 PM »
I Installed a New Piston, Rings small-End Bearing and the 2 Big Gaskets, For the first Time since New; about 6 hrs Riding ago. More about Preventative maintenance than anything Else, How Soon should I think about Re-Torquing the Big Nuts Head @ Barrel ? I know its almost impossible to Torque the Jug as you can't get a Socket in there So i'll just get a 17mm Spanner in there and lean on it, But whats the Schedule ?? And Does anyone Know if theres a 'Clymer ' Type Shop Book available ?. My 97 Sings Like a Bird and I want to keep it Flying

Rick

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ReTorquing Query
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2003, 05:53:50 AM »
I am curious why you removed the head for a top end job.  Was it leaking?  Generally, you never want to remove the head unless you have a leak or you are performing head mods.

Rick

Hogwylde

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ReTorquing Query
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2003, 11:16:15 AM »
Quote from: Rick
Generally, you never want to remove the head unless you have a leak or you are performing head mods.


I'm curious why you think THAT?  :?

How do you clean off burnt on carbon on the cylinder head?  How do you check for erosion at the top of the cylinder or at the edge of the combustion chamber?  Is there even enough space to remove the jug on a KX500 with the head still on?  How do you keep your head bolts from seizing from non-use if you never pull the head?  Since a top end kit comes with a head gasket, why NOT pull the head and replace the gasket??

Here's a link to Eric Gorr's two stroke rebuilding tips.  >>>>>>
http://www.eric-gorr.com/tech/twotopweb.html#Maintenance%20and%20Inspection

He recommends pulling the head with top end inspections.  I would too.  But, if you like decorating your wall with unused head gaskets...more power to ya!! :D

MarkNZ

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ReTorquing Query
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2003, 04:17:08 PM »
Actually I was wrong about the 17mm Spanner for the Jug Bolts, Of Course its only a 14,Doh ( someone should have picked me up on that) As Hogwylde Correctly stated there are many reasons for taking the head off. As I mentioned it was all about PM and as I have the Spares Kit from the dealer when I bought the Bike New it Still Contained a Spare Piston, Gudgeon, 2 Sets of Rings, Oil Seals, a Complete gasket Set etc etc. So It was a No Cost Excercise. I Wanted to take the head off for those Reasons,check the carbon, clean it up , check the Corrosion. You can actually take Barrel off Easily with the Head still on. Just Remove the Engine Brackets on Top and the Plug of Course, You'll probably Skin a
Few Knuckles as I did but thats Part  of the Package.You may need some Help to Lower the Jug back on though ! And Thanks for the Eric Gorr Site, Everyone should take a look

Rick

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ReTorquing Query
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2003, 03:29:20 AM »
Here are my reasons for not pulling the head with every top end change:

1. If you have your jetting correct, you should not have anything other than slight carbon buildup on the cylinder head.  The ugly carbon buildup will be on the piston, which is being tossed anyway.
2. Head gaskets are notorious for being hard to be resealed.  Many folks use the copper spray on the head gasket to help get reseal, but some amount of this spray stays on the surface of the cylinder and head.  Try using anything abrasive that scratches the surface, and you will have a leak fore sure.
3.  Microscopic carbon buildup on the head will seem like a blessing if you realize that your head gasket has a slight leak into the combustion chamber about 10 miles into your first ride when you find out your out of coolant.  Unfortunately, while leaks on the outside edge of the cylinder to head seal are easy to see, small leak on the combustion chamber can go undetectable until you overheat.

We have raced at the National level for several years, with Kawasaki doing needed motor work prior to race day on several occasions.  They have never pulled a head to do a top end job.  While pulling the head is necessary periodically, to do this every time you put in a new top end is like playing Russian roulette.  Which time will get you a leak?  Since I have several jugs, I install a reconditioned jug about once each year.  That is the ONLY time I pull the head.  But by then, I have already had 2 or 3 new top ends.

Yes, you can get the cylinder off the bike with the head on, and a top end job takes about 30-45 minutes (depending upon what's playing on ESPN2) from beginning to end, with the head left in place.  That is from assembled bike to assembled bike, not just the motor work.

On the gasket issue (having lots of head gaskets decorating the walls), the Kawasaki rubberized base gasket will last about 5 top end changes (per Kawasaki race mechanics) without any risk of leaking, hence there is not any reason to spend money on new gaskets with every top end rebuild.  Can you guess why Kawasaki made the base gasket reusable and not the head gasket?  

I have read Eric's information on many issues (and he has a lot of good stuff), but opinions are like noses (?G? rated website), everyone has one.  Many top motor builders do not subscribe to the suggestion of pulling the head with every top end change.  Feel free to pull the head with every top end job, but I will continue to take the safer approach of leaving it in place, and only removing periodically for inspection.  I would much rather decorate my walls with head gaskets (if I am compelled to buy a new gasket set with each rebuild) rather than copies of large checks to repair motors that have overheated because of an interior head gasket leak.

Rick

Hogwylde

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ReTorquing Query
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2003, 11:59:31 AM »
HHmmmmm......all valid reason and a very good point!  With the frequency of your top ends and several years experience, I'm sure you've come up with a practical (and cheaper) solution that seems to work very well!!

Although, for someone like me (and maybe other spodes out there) who only do a top end during the winter non-riding season and don't have the skill to tune perfectly for weather and temp changes and lives with a slightly fat tuning for safety in a range of temps......a yearly topend will include pulling the head and power valves for cleaning.

MarkNZ

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I Hear You !
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2003, 04:19:09 PM »
OK

I Hear What you're Both saying and it all makes good sense, These days my riding is now Confined to trail-riding with a 4-6 hr Cross-Country thrown in maybe 2 -3 times a Year. My KX is still Basically Stock, apart from the PC Hardware and Boysen reeds, Bars and Graphics its the real deal. And I Keep it Clean and well maintained, People Comment on How Cool it Looks . Its the only KX500 I 've Got. The Main reason I took the Head off was so's I could take the Jug in to the Performance Shop to get it Cleaned up prior to putting the #2 Piston in. End Of Story. Its funny the Engineer had a good look at it and said he would'nt even take the 10 Bucks off me to clean it up as it did'nt need it ! Put it straight Back on and Start Riding ! Not Bad after 5 1/2 Years hehe

Now, Whos Gonna answer my Question? The Heads Been off, though with my Riding Frequency it certainly wont be coming off Again. What about the Re-torquing Question ?????

Offline Paul

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Re: I Hear You !
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2003, 12:05:16 AM »
Jumping in late here, I'll dust off my MMI manuals and get you that spec later today.  I need my coffee to kick in first ;)
Quote from: MarkNZ
OK

I Hear What you're Both saying and it all makes good sense, These days my riding is now Confined to trail-riding with a 4-6 hr Cross-Country thrown in maybe 2 -3 times a Year. My KX is still Basically Stock, apart from the PC Hardware and Boysen reeds, Bars and Graphics its the real deal. And I Keep it Clean and well maintained, People Comment on How Cool it Looks . Its the only KX500 I 've Got. The Main reason I took the Head off was so's I could take the Jug in to the Performance Shop to get it Cleaned up prior to putting the #2 Piston in. End Of Story. Its funny the Engineer had a good look at it and said he would'nt even take the 10 Bucks off me to clean it up as it did'nt need it ! Put it straight Back on and Start Riding ! Not Bad after 5 1/2 Years hehe

Now, Whos Gonna answer my Question? The Heads Been off, though with my Riding Frequency it certainly wont be coming off Again. What about the Re-torquing Question ?????

Rick

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ReTorquing Query
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2003, 02:38:47 AM »
Wow, 5 1/2 years out of a jug, and still in great shape!  :shock:  I can't even get 2 year before it needs to be plated again!  :cry: The jug I have on the shelf waiting to go to RPM for plating is so bad that the piston was running on bare aluminum at the exhaust port.  Still had good power, but since I had another jug to swap on, didn't want to take the risk.

Still sitting here in awe at 5 1/2 years.  Must be that the coffee has not kicked in yet.  :?

As for winter riding, I've had some of my best injuries riding in the snow in the winter.  In fact, on Christmas Eve 2001, we were practicing in a snowy tight canyon, and I slipped off the wall in a tight corner when I lost traction on the the front wheel.  Had to ride 20 miles with a dislocated sholder and seperated clavical to get to the truck, and then drive another 4 hours to a hospital that I had confidence wouldn't kill me with the treatment.  (Over the years, I've learned to find a hospital with a trama center, and not just a small emergency room.  Much better odds of living a long life).  Arrived home just in time to play the one armed Santa before the kids got up to open presents.  Fortunately, I have a GREAT wife, who doesn't mind me playing so hard.  :wink:

Winter riding is just a whole new adventure...  :lol:

Torque specs?  For what?  Now what was this thread about anyway...

Rick

Offline Paul

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ReTorquing Query
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2003, 04:17:04 AM »
Ok, here it is...

The torque spec is 2.5Kg/M (2.5 kilograms per meter) and the recommended check interval is every 5 hours. Now with that said, I check everything on mine after each good ride, but I also know of guys that have never checked the torque on the head nuts and they haven't had any problems with them backing out.

moburki

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ReTorquing Query
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2003, 06:14:19 AM »
speaking of torque, you think you could send me swingarm pivot and linkage torque specs kx500? i need a manual, bad.
thanks
mo

Offline Paul

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ReTorquing Query
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2003, 07:17:30 AM »
Sure thing,

swingarm pivot: 60lbs/ft
shock mounting bolts: 25lbs/ft
tie-rod linkage: 60lbs/ft

Quote from: moburki
speaking of torque, you think you could send me swingarm pivot and linkage torque specs kx500? i need a manual, bad.
thanks
mo

moburki

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ReTorquing Query
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2003, 09:15:36 AM »
thanks a million :D
mo
just picked up a 130/80-19 s12 michelin. can't wait to try this weekend

MarkNZ

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Re torquing Query
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2003, 06:21:21 PM »
My PC just Got Back after a Re-Boot, Rick How come you only get 2Yrs !!?? I Dont Believe it.......Have another Coffee. I've  Run my Bike from new with a mixture of 1:3 Avgas 105 and Reg Pump UnLeaded 91 along with 40:1 Motul 600 or 800 everytime and I'm still only on the 4th Plug . I Just Changed the Chain & Sprockets for the first Time about 6 mnths Ago. Obviously I Dont use my Bike nthat much, I'd be Lucky to Ride more than 3-4 Hrs a Month so that Probably Clears things up for you.

But 2 Years !!?? s**t !

And for the man with the Dislcl. Shoulder Yeeeah! Doesnt it Hurt KX500!! I've had 5, Read my Intro and thats only Chapter One!

Rick

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ReTorquing Query
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2003, 02:56:01 AM »
I really wish I could more out of my jugs and pistons, but I guess I just ride way too much.  As noted on other threads, I ride in the neighborhood of 500 miles a month, more during the spring and fall race seasons, as I ride 3-4 days a week, so I am putting on 300 miles a week.  Since I will be 44 this year, it takes a lot more seat time to be able to run with the kids in the races.  Here is my life cycle on the major components:

-  On the jug, my spare (that was only 2 years old when swapped) is worn down to the aluminum on the exhaust port side.  
- I change pistons at least 3 times a year, but have changed just rings a couple of times and held the number to 2.
- go through 4 rear tires in a year and 2 front tires.
- I have to rebuild the crank one every 2 years
- 2 sets of sprockets a year and one O-ring chain
- a couple of sets of plastic, unless I have a big get-off
- Ironically, I have had the same stabilzer and handlebars for three years.  I run Pro Tapers, and actually have 2 extra sets hanging in the van, but have never bent or broken my bars.
- New heavy duty tubes every year, unless I get a flat during a race.  I just continue to race on flats, so the tire and tube are toast after the race.
- I have 5 air filters, so I change to a clean filter frequently, and never race on anything but a fresh filter.  I never have found dirt in the airbox, reed cage, or crank area, so filtration is sufficient to protect internals.

I guess I just ride too much to get the long life out of components.  As a note, until I switched to a 500, I rode KX250's, and would wear out a bike a year.  I tried to make a couple last into the second year, but it was always a mistake.  With the 500, the bike is so tough that I can get 2 years pretty easily.  I am actually going to try and get 3 years out of my current 500.

As you might imagine, I have a great wife, who not only lets me spend lots of money on my hobby, but also manages the pit crew at all of the races.

Rick