Author Topic: Very rare kx500 cylinder  (Read 31849 times)

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Offline cobbs

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Very rare kx500 cylinder
« on: March 02, 2012, 10:08:01 AM »
So i guess i have a very rare factory race cylinder (came off a 95) has anyone come across one of these before? I sent my cylinder to kustom kraft to have it sleeved (just my personal preference) and they called me back and told me that there is no sleeve that will match my cylinder mostly because their are two EXTRA exhaust ports that dont exist on any other kx500 cylinder hes ever seen (and he has seen hundreds)and then he tells me that its a very very rare factory race team cylinder which is very likely the case because when i took the cylinder off it had no cut marks ANYWHERE it was totally untouched with no tool marks it looks just like a crude factory cast cylinder but with extra exhaust ports its pretty cool to have such a rare cylinder but now i cant have it sleeved because it will cost big bucks to have a custom sleeve made so i guess its back to plating. If anyone knows anything about it or where it came from please let me know i will also post pics of it when i get it back from plating.

Motorrad

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Re: Very rare kx500 cylinder
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2012, 11:28:57 AM »
Id like to see pics... If we cant sort it out.. no one can....    I have owned 2 team green CYL"s myself...     

And there is a mod some of us have done that involves 2 more intake ports.


have him snap a picture for us..

Offline RoostiusMaximus

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Re: Very rare kx500 cylinder
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2012, 11:30:12 AM »
its just a sleeve, why cant he poke a hole in it?
I could do it

Offline cobbs

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Re: Very rare kx500 cylinder
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2012, 11:53:25 AM »
kustom kraft said they could do it but its just alot of work to match those ports just the sleeve would be over 400$ plus everything else so its getting plated im just going to have to make sure i seat the rings properly the previous owner did not and it had alot of blowby which is the reason im rebuilding it plus i had some nikasil flaking off ohh and my extra ports are exhaust ports not intake so does that mean it could be a team green cylinder possibly even danny hamels or jeff wards?

Offline cobbs

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Re: Very rare kx500 cylinder
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2012, 12:10:19 PM »
Hey motorad you seem to know ALOT about these bike so what your method on seating rings nice and tight with a coated cylinder i know the new technology coatings are very hard so it makes it difficult to seat the rings properly and have never broke in a plated motor before

Motorrad

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Re: Very rare kx500 cylinder
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2012, 12:20:22 PM »
Hey motorad you seem to know ALOT about these bike so what your method on seating rings nice and tight with a coated cylinder i know the new technology coatings are very hard so it makes it difficult to seat the rings properly and have never broke in a plated motor before

I put a post up about it somewhere.. Ill dig up a link for ya...


Get us some pictures of the Jug...    its all just speculation till we can see it..


I have had one of Destry abbots jugs, and one of Wardys.. and one of jeff healeys..   all were way more stock than you would think...

Offline cobbs

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Re: Very rare kx500 cylinder
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2012, 12:38:43 PM »
I will call kustom kraft monday to see if he can send a pic if not ill do it when it comes back, and thats funny you said they look more stock than you would think my jug looked completely stock to me there was NO PORTING at all no cutting has ever been done it has all cast marks and fat rounded intake runners zero refinement, but it has those extra exhaust ports i have had alot of motors with port work and i have ported a couple of my own so i know what to look for and my cylinder looks completely stock that why i didnt know those ports weren't normal

Motorrad

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Re: Very rare kx500 cylinder
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2012, 01:33:33 PM »
I degreed etc all those of mine.... trust me when I say.. they were WAY more stock than you woudl think..




Break in..

I still vouch by the old tryed and true take it easy method..

This is written by a guy name Howard Richards from R.E.D.. Best describes my train of thought... (except I keep better records of compression, leakdown (both pressure and vaccume)

"The purpose of the "break-in" procedure is to GRADUALLY wear down the "high spots" on components such as rings, piston skirts, cylinder walls, bearings and races, etc. after a motor is fitted with new items. ALL machined parts are imperfect to a certain degree and therefore have "high" and "low" areas which must be mated to those that they roll or rub against to achieve a good running fit. Problems can arise however in the process because the mere act of "rubbing down" the high spots creates abnormally high friction. Friction creates heat. Heat creates expansion. Expansion reduces running clearances and increases friction. More friction, more heat, more expansion... Pretty soon you can see that you are rubbing off MORE than high spots on each part resulting in premature part wear (LOW spots). This is what happens when a motor is broken in too aggressively. You end up with a motor that, at the very least, has abnormally LARGE running clearances throughout. Thus you now have an unnecessarily shortened remaining life for your "new" motor accompanied by reduced performance. If the motor is really abused during early "new life" running, the tight initial clearances may get closed up completely due to heat and expansion and the rotating or reciprocating parts will SEIZE. So how to control this "running in and mating" of moving parts becomes the question...

First, before you even start the motor for the first time, do a "cranking pressure" compression test with a good quality, screw-into-the-spark-plug-hole type compression gage. Ignition off, fuel off, throttle held WIDE OPEN. Kick, pull-rope or cycle the electric starter until the gage reaches its' highest reading and stays there. Note the reading and record it. Don't expect a real high number because the rings and cylinder are not mated yet, but you should see at least 100 psi, sometimes much higher depending on the planned compression ratio, port timing (or camshaft profile if it's a four stroke), etc.. Generally speaking, with fuel, air, spark at approximately the correct time, 100 psi gage pressure and exhaust, the motor will run.

I prefer to break-in motors on a petroleum based oil and then switch to a synthetic afterwards (if it's to be done at all). There's lots of opinions on this...... for better or worse, that's mine. My feelings are that "too slippery" an oil will slow down the break-in process too much and I've even seen 600X cross hatched cylinders, chrome and Nikasil bores where the rings never seated and we attributed it to synthetic oils during break-in. If it's a two stroke, you can add a bit of extra pre-mix oil to the fuel, set the oil pump at a slightly higher than normal base setting, or both for the first tank of fuel, but I'd use a petroleum based oil.

OK. Start the motor and allow it to run at approximately 1500 rpm or so. Shut the choke off absolutely ASAP! The excess fuel that the choke supplies can wash the oil film off the cylinder walls (oil injection) and overheat the ring faces quickly, especially in a four stroke. ALWAYS shut the choke off ASAP on ANY motor for this same reason. NEVER let a motor run for long periods with the choke on to warm it up. NEVER ride, drive, fly or place under load any motor driven device with the choke on. It is a quick route to early death for the rings.

Check immediately for oil and compression leaks around the various gasket sealing locations. ANY LEAKS should be fixed immediately, especially head, base or exhaust gasket areas. If there are none, hold your hand against the cylinder and GENTLY vary the engine speed in neutral between approximately 1500 and 2500 rpm. DO NOT OVER REV! There is no "load" on the engine and over revving is very tough on crankshaft, bearings, etc.! When the engine is warm enough to be uncomfortable on your hand, shut it off. Again check for any leaks. Now let the motor cool down to COLD. THEN, carefully re-torque the head(s) at this time.

Now you're ready for your first ride/drive/flight/whatever. Start the motor and warm-up gently exactly as before. When the motor is uncomfortably warm on your hand, stab her in gear and gently accelerate through each gear using about 1/3 to 1/2 throttle as a shift point. DO NOT BOG or LUG the motor. DO NOT "cruise" at a steady rpm. Vary the engine speed up and down at all times. DO NOT OVER REV either! When you reach top gear immediately slow down and ride back to your origin doing the same thing. Limit your initial ride time to 5 to 10 minutes maximum, all the while touching the cylinder frequently with your hand to sense drastic overheating. ANY signs of excessive heating or abnormal engine noises require immediate SHUT DOWN and investigation/cure of the culprit. If in doubt, DO NOT ride/drive/fly back to the garage and then shut it off... TOW it back! When you're done with the initial ride, let it cool down to COLD again.

Continue this procedure gradually extending the running time to 10 minutes, then 15 minutes, etc.. You can also gradually get a bit more agressive with throttle application (slightly bigger "handfuls/footfuls" of throttle). Speed up, slow down, constantly varying throttle position and going up and down through the gears. Steady cruising at one engine speed or lugging the motor below its' powerband in a higher gear can cause overheating during break-in... AVOID BOTH! Don't worry so much about too high an rpm as VARYING the rpm. Bursts of throttle allow heating and mild expansion which in turn shaves off those high spots while deceleration allows slight cooling and contraction. Stay away from long hills, carrying a passenger or heavy loads during break-in.

After about an hour total riding/driving/flying time has accumulated, recheck cranking compression. As the rings seat, you will see the readings come up and you will also notice improvements in power delivery. Break-in is essentially complete when the readings peak and no longer get higher as more riding time accumulates. For a two stroke, this is typically one to three hours break-in time.

A four stroke has a superior oiling system and therefore breaks in more slowly. Two to five hundred miles is frequently required to completely break-in a four stroke. For a closely toleranced street four stroke it often takes 1000 to 1500 miles or even more! I dump the oil and filter in a four stroke after the first 75 miles, again at 200 miles, 500 miles, 1000 miles and each 1500 miles thereafter on a street engine. Off road and competition four strokes get fresh oil and filter every one hundred to four hundred miles with me, depending on how hard their running life is after break-in. The initial oil and filter change is done into a clean, light colored, plastic shallow pan so I can see any metal particles that drain out with it. Straining the oil through a clean, white paint filter is excellent practice. You can then drag a magnet through the oil to collect the particles that are ferrous for closer inspection of potential problems. Minor break-in particulate or "dust" is normal. I also cut open the oil filter and lay it out on clean white paper towel to see what it has trapped and again look for any signs of trouble. Yes, it's a lot of fiddling and checking but I find it infinitly preferable to engine catastrophies (and a lot less expensive!).

Once it is broken-in, you can optimize ignition timing and jetting, preferably on a dyno. During break-in keep the fuel/air SLIGHTLY rich and the ignition timing essentially stock, NOT advanced.

Even after break-in is done, always warm up the engine thoroughly before riding/driving/flying per the above procedure to avoid cold engine excessive wear or even possible "cold seizure" on liquid cooled motors (most frequently occurs in marine or snowmobile applications).

Enjoy the fruits of your intense labors...... good luck!"


Offline cobbs

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Re: Very rare kx500 cylinder
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2012, 03:09:48 PM »
thanks for the advice I'll give it a try!



Offline weymouth399

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Re: Very rare kx500 cylinder
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2012, 12:59:49 AM »
I degreed etc all those of mine.... trust me when I say.. they were WAY more stock than you woudl think..




Break in..

I still vouch by the old tryed and true take it easy method..

This is written by a guy name Howard Richards from R.E.D.. Best describes my train of thought... (except I keep better records of compression, leakdown (both pressure and vaccume)

"The purpose of the "break-in" procedure is to GRADUALLY wear down the "high spots" on components such as rings, piston skirts, cylinder walls, bearings and races, etc. after a motor is fitted with new items. ALL machined parts are imperfect to a certain degree and therefore have "high" and "low" areas which must be mated to those that they roll or rub against to achieve a good running fit. Problems can arise however in the process because the mere act of "rubbing down" the high spots creates abnormally high friction. Friction creates heat. Heat creates expansion. Expansion reduces running clearances and increases friction. More friction, more heat, more expansion... Pretty soon you can see that you are rubbing off MORE than high spots on each part resulting in premature part wear (LOW spots). This is what happens when a motor is broken in too aggressively. You end up with a motor that, at the very least, has abnormally LARGE running clearances throughout. Thus you now have an unnecessarily shortened remaining life for your "new" motor accompanied by reduced performance. If the motor is really abused during early "new life" running, the tight initial clearances may get closed up completely due to heat and expansion and the rotating or reciprocating parts will SEIZE. So how to control this "running in and mating" of moving parts becomes the question...

First, before you even start the motor for the first time, do a "cranking pressure" compression test with a good quality, screw-into-the-spark-plug-hole type compression gage. Ignition off, fuel off, throttle held WIDE OPEN. Kick, pull-rope or cycle the electric starter until the gage reaches its' highest reading and stays there. Note the reading and record it. Don't expect a real high number because the rings and cylinder are not mated yet, but you should see at least 100 psi, sometimes much higher depending on the planned compression ratio, port timing (or camshaft profile if it's a four stroke), etc.. Generally speaking, with fuel, air, spark at approximately the correct time, 100 psi gage pressure and exhaust, the motor will run.

I prefer to break-in motors on a petroleum based oil and then switch to a synthetic afterwards (if it's to be done at all). There's lots of opinions on this...... for better or worse, that's mine. My feelings are that "too slippery" an oil will slow down the break-in process too much and I've even seen 600X cross hatched cylinders, chrome and Nikasil bores where the rings never seated and we attributed it to synthetic oils during break-in. If it's a two stroke, you can add a bit of extra pre-mix oil to the fuel, set the oil pump at a slightly higher than normal base setting, or both for the first tank of fuel, but I'd use a petroleum based oil.

OK. Start the motor and allow it to run at approximately 1500 rpm or so. Shut the choke off absolutely ASAP! The excess fuel that the choke supplies can wash the oil film off the cylinder walls (oil injection) and overheat the ring faces quickly, especially in a four stroke. ALWAYS shut the choke off ASAP on ANY motor for this same reason. NEVER let a motor run for long periods with the choke on to warm it up. NEVER ride, drive, fly or place under load any motor driven device with the choke on. It is a quick route to early death for the rings.

Check immediately for oil and compression leaks around the various gasket sealing locations. ANY LEAKS should be fixed immediately, especially head, base or exhaust gasket areas. If there are none, hold your hand against the cylinder and GENTLY vary the engine speed in neutral between approximately 1500 and 2500 rpm. DO NOT OVER REV! There is no "load" on the engine and over revving is very tough on crankshaft, bearings, etc.! When the engine is warm enough to be uncomfortable on your hand, shut it off. Again check for any leaks. Now let the motor cool down to COLD. THEN, carefully re-torque the head(s) at this time.

Now you're ready for your first ride/drive/flight/whatever. Start the motor and warm-up gently exactly as before. When the motor is uncomfortably warm on your hand, stab her in gear and gently accelerate through each gear using about 1/3 to 1/2 throttle as a shift point. DO NOT BOG or LUG the motor. DO NOT "cruise" at a steady rpm. Vary the engine speed up and down at all times. DO NOT OVER REV either! When you reach top gear immediately slow down and ride back to your origin doing the same thing. Limit your initial ride time to 5 to 10 minutes maximum, all the while touching the cylinder frequently with your hand to sense drastic overheating. ANY signs of excessive heating or abnormal engine noises require immediate SHUT DOWN and investigation/cure of the culprit. If in doubt, DO NOT ride/drive/fly back to the garage and then shut it off... TOW it back! When you're done with the initial ride, let it cool down to COLD again.

Continue this procedure gradually extending the running time to 10 minutes, then 15 minutes, etc.. You can also gradually get a bit more agressive with throttle application (slightly bigger "handfuls/footfuls" of throttle). Speed up, slow down, constantly varying throttle position and going up and down through the gears. Steady cruising at one engine speed or lugging the motor below its' powerband in a higher gear can cause overheating during break-in... AVOID BOTH! Don't worry so much about too high an rpm as VARYING the rpm. Bursts of throttle allow heating and mild expansion which in turn shaves off those high spots while deceleration allows slight cooling and contraction. Stay away from long hills, carrying a passenger or heavy loads during break-in.

After about an hour total riding/driving/flying time has accumulated, recheck cranking compression. As the rings seat, you will see the readings come up and you will also notice improvements in power delivery. Break-in is essentially complete when the readings peak and no longer get higher as more riding time accumulates. For a two stroke, this is typically one to three hours break-in time.

A four stroke has a superior oiling system and therefore breaks in more slowly. Two to five hundred miles is frequently required to completely break-in a four stroke. For a closely toleranced street four stroke it often takes 1000 to 1500 miles or even more! I dump the oil and filter in a four stroke after the first 75 miles, again at 200 miles, 500 miles, 1000 miles and each 1500 miles thereafter on a street engine. Off road and competition four strokes get fresh oil and filter every one hundred to four hundred miles with me, depending on how hard their running life is after break-in. The initial oil and filter change is done into a clean, light colored, plastic shallow pan so I can see any metal particles that drain out with it. Straining the oil through a clean, white paint filter is excellent practice. You can then drag a magnet through the oil to collect the particles that are ferrous for closer inspection of potential problems. Minor break-in particulate or "dust" is normal. I also cut open the oil filter and lay it out on clean white paper towel to see what it has trapped and again look for any signs of trouble. Yes, it's a lot of fiddling and checking but I find it infinitly preferable to engine catastrophies (and a lot less expensive!).

Once it is broken-in, you can optimize ignition timing and jetting, preferably on a dyno. During break-in keep the fuel/air SLIGHTLY rich and the ignition timing essentially stock, NOT advanced.

Even after break-in is done, always warm up the engine thoroughly before riding/driving/flying per the above procedure to avoid cold engine excessive wear or even possible "cold seizure" on liquid cooled motors (most frequently occurs in marine or snowmobile applications).

Enjoy the fruits of your intense labors...... good luck!"



Howard is a very smart guy, wait, very very smart guy. He built my KX 5 and his buddy built my pipe. So glad those guys are local to me. If you want to go fast and have gobbs of power he's the man. But non of our local guy's I like being the one with the big motor. :evil: :-D

Bob W
93 KX500 ice bike for sale
00 KX 500 ice/dirt
04 KDX220 dirt
04 Kx 500 ice bike
08 KLX 450 on/off
72CT90x2 for sale
76LB80Chappy
86FJ1200
89FJ1200

Offline cobbs

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Re: Very rare kx500 cylinder
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2012, 12:14:55 PM »
I can see that custom pipe in your pic that thing is fat does it have some good top end or what? I am working on my own custom pipe too using hydroforming but I'm sure it will take some trial and error to get it perfect but anyway you have a sweet pipe hopefully I will too

Offline weymouth399

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Re: Very rare kx500 cylinder
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2012, 01:36:17 PM »
My pipe and cyl/head work was built for a STRONG mid to top end power curve. I only ride it on the ice. 40 plus LBS just extra of screws and liners in tires, plus gearing I needed torque more than HP.
This pipe design is also run on a CR500 roadrace bike at louden NH, he does very well. If I could find a SM setup cheap or could borrow the stuff I would run mine on the  Louden Roadcourse. Wife wouldn't like it but you know. More laps never hurt. :wink:

Bob W
93 KX500 ice bike for sale
00 KX 500 ice/dirt
04 KDX220 dirt
04 Kx 500 ice bike
08 KLX 450 on/off
72CT90x2 for sale
76LB80Chappy
86FJ1200
89FJ1200

Offline Polar-Bus

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Re: Very rare kx500 cylinder
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2012, 04:11:27 AM »
My pipe and cyl/head work was built for a STRONG mid to top end power curve. I only ride it on the ice. 40 plus LBS just extra of screws and liners in tires, plus gearing I needed torque more than HP.
This pipe design is also run on a CR500 roadrace bike at louden NH, he does very well. If I could find a SM setup cheap or could borrow the stuff I would run mine on the  Louden Roadcourse. Wife wouldn't like it but you know. More laps never hurt. :wink:

Bob W

That's all your body needs is a SM KX500 high side  at 90 mph down the front straight... :-o
01' KX500
'84 GPz1100
'87 GSX-R  750
'06 HD Fatboy
'73 Kawi H1
'03 CRG KX500 Shifter kart

Offline weymouth399

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Re: Very rare kx500 cylinder
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2012, 04:50:07 AM »
That's just mean. I'm old and worn out, what are you trying to say? I would be more nervous coming back on the nascar oval, that's the part of the track intimidates me in the legend car at high speed. The wall just looks so big in them cars, couldn't think about it on a bike.

Bob W
93 KX500 ice bike for sale
00 KX 500 ice/dirt
04 KDX220 dirt
04 Kx 500 ice bike
08 KLX 450 on/off
72CT90x2 for sale
76LB80Chappy
86FJ1200
89FJ1200

Offline cobbs

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Re: Very rare kx500 cylinder
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2012, 12:39:10 PM »
well my cylinder is at us chrome right now so I can't get a photo for about another week but I will do it asap