KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Aluminum Frame Conversion (AFC) => Topic started by: sandblaster on December 02, 2010, 12:42:18 PM
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I recently acquired a 07 KX250F donor (2 hours ago). I already have a spare 99 K5.
I read all the articles in this forum on builds that have been done.
I also spoke with another member that seems to like his.
However, before I dig in and go for it I was wondering if any others have any input on this.
I'm not asking how to do it as there is plenty of info here on that.
What I would like is a more long term analysis of the pros and cons on handing, power to weight ratio, longevity, the type of riding being done, is there anything on the build that you would do differently, ect.
I do not race on MX tracks any more but I want to ride this Desert/Dunes so it has to be able to handle speeds 90+.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/DSC_0095.jpg)
I just purchased a 17MM Drill bit.
Does that mean I'm now committed? :|
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I have not used a 250f for the conversion, I used a 450f for my 500 conversion, however, I recently did a 250 2t into a 250f frame and felt that the small 2 stroke fit fairly snugly and wondered how the 500 would fit. My thoughts on this were as follows, use frame rails that JFAB manuf. they would be more suited to the 500 motor than modding the 250f frame rails. it seems there is plenty of room under the tank or at least that was the case with the 250 and the 500 isn't that much taller.
So now get ahold of Jerry and get them frame rails coming and start cutting.
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Yeah, it's going to be a very close fit but it is doable.
I was going to order those rails but I am having a time getting in contact with anybody.
I guess with the holidays he must be very busy.
I know we are swamped up to our eyeballs :lol:
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Besides, the 250f is what ServiceHonda uses in their conversions. It should work fine, but you may need one of those stubby spark plugs. :-D
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Sandblaster.....What did you decide to do?
JFAB
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Bye bye Donor bike :-o
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX250F%202007%20PROJECT/DSCN6833.jpg)
It's being disassembled as I write :-D
Nooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX250F%202007%20PROJECT/DSCN6836.jpg)
Please, someone stop me......
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX250F%202007%20PROJECT/DSCN6837.jpg)
Too late :-D
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX250F%202007%20PROJECT/DSCN6838.jpg)
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12-30-10
I went ahead and purchased some brand new engine cases for my engine build.
This left me with a nice set of blanks for my Mock Up Engine.
Installed a back up cylinder and head .
Now, it's time for a big drill....
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/12-30-10/DSCN7874.jpg)
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Now you see it.....
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/DSCN8056.jpg)
Now you don't.....
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/DSCN8055.jpg)
I used my Sawsall with a fine metal cutting blade.
Then, after I removed the mount I used a hand grinder and then a orbital sander to smooth it out.
I know it's not necessary as nobody will see it.
Yet for some reason I will feel better :lol:
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Today I received my Mock up engine back from the machine shop I had drill my 17MM swing arm bolt hole.
As a side note, I bolted the case halves together with a factory gasket.
I had the machine shop set the cases on the clutch side with the clutch cover off on a set of parallel blocks and then drilled it to maintain perpendicularity.
Drilling was very easy.
Before I tried to fit the engine I did a test fit with the swing arm bolt.
I had to use a rubber mallet and hit it hard to get the dadnabit thing in.
So, I wire wheeled the pin and de-burred the hole.
It was still too tight.
I grabbed my digital veneer calipers and see that the holes through the frame are 17.05MM.
I guess they were allowing for manufacturing tolerances.
Also, I put a straight edge on my pin and it was nice and straight.
Since I do not have a ream of the correct size I went to the local auto parts store and picked up a wheel cylinder ream.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-4-11/DSCN8059.jpg)
After about 15 minutes of oiling and reaming it finally fits snug but can be put in by hand.
So, the results for today are as shown below:
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-4-11/DSCN8058.jpg)
If I was going to order another drill, I would not use the 17mm.
I would use a 43/64" as it is 0.672" or 17.06 mm.
This is only .01mm or 0.0004" larger than the holes in the frame.
Now that I see how it fits, it's time to cut some more on the frame.
I better order some frame rails soon.....
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11-5-11
Old carriage goes to the recyclers...
Not really, keep all the pieces, you never can tell when one will come in handy :-)
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/SHOP/1-5-11/DSCN8147.jpg)
Next
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/SHOP/1-5-11/DSCN8146.jpg)
Next
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/SHOP/1-5-11/DSCN8145.jpg)
Next
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/SHOP/1-5-11/DSCN8148.jpg)
Now.... it is too late :-D
I am also keeping track of cost and the offset of selling the left overs.
I will post all info when it is done. (Gulp)
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I would save the yoke and do it like im doing my build so you don't haveve to make your own
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I considered that.
However, I like the looks of the clean unadulterated frame tubes.
It was not a matter of function, only looks :-)
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Ordered the frame rails today from JFAB.
THANKS!
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1-12-11
Ok, I've been really busy and have not been able to do much to the bike.
I did manage to do a bit more today.
Just for grins I went to mount the Swing arm to the engine and frame.
Guess what? It does not fit.
The engine cases measured 94.3MM or 3.713".
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX250F%202007%20PROJECT/1-12-11/ENGINECASES.jpg)
The inside to the inside of the swing arm bushings when pushed toward the center as they would be when mounted measured 93.95MM or 3.699".
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX250F%202007%20PROJECT/1-12-11/SWINGARM.jpg)
That leaves a interference fit of .35MM or .014".
My solution was to remove material from the Collars that are on the outside of either side of the swing arm.
The book shows that they are 6MM thick.
However, I measured them at 5.95MM or .234" thick.
I precision ground (Bench grinder and a 17MM rod) each to 5.59MM or .220" thick.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX250F%202007%20PROJECT/1-12-11/COLLAR171X29X6.jpg)
Everything fits together nicely.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX250F%202007%20PROJECT/1-12-11/DSCN9073.jpg)
These Collars are hard anodized so, I may have to have them anodized again depending on how fast the ground soft aluminum surface wears.
My next project is to check the swing arm to right engine case clearance through it's full range of travel as I believe it may be a bit too tight and I may have to machine the swing arm a bit to make it fit correctly.
I wouldn't want to bottom out my suspension and crack my right engine case :cry:
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Looking good! I just drilled out my cases on sunday with a 43/64" and it was perfect, No fitment issues at all I was able to mock it in the frame with swingarm in about 15 minutes!!
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Yeah, the 17MM was a pain and I ended up drilling it with the 43/64" any way.
That's what is cool about this site.
We can share this kind of info and save others a lot of guess work, dollars, and time.
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i cant wait to see it completed!!
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Me to. :-o
I'm afraid it's going to take a few months but I really want to do it the right way, at least as right as I can do it :lol:
I am also taking measurements and a lot of pics to try and fill in some of the gaps that seem to be missing from other builds.
Who knows, I may do another if I like the way this one turns out.
My friends are already begging me to do some for them.
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1-15-11
Found a nice crack in my clutch cover...
Time to go see Mr. Tig
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-15-11/DSCN9471.jpg)
What I'm doing next is checking the clearance between the right engine case and the swing arm.
I have the frame, swing arm, and engine bolted together without the shock so I can test the full range of motion of the swing arm.
To temporarily hold it in the correct position I am using a piece of .154" or 3.91MM steel that fits in between the cylinder and the frame.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-15-11/DSCN9465.jpg)
I may have to adjust it a bit later but this is fairly close for now.
As you can see by the next photo, it is a tight fit with the swing arm in it's neutral position.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-15-11/DSCN9467.jpg)
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That part of the swing arm actually has a raised embossed area that is making it a close fit.
I believe I can machine the swing arm about .015" deep by about .25" wide and it will be fine.
I may also have to machine a bit of the clutch cover as shown below.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-15-11/DSCN9470.jpg)
I am holding off on that until I see how well the swing arm mod works.
The last thing I want to do is make the mating surfaces between the clutch cover and the right engine case any narrower.
With the swing arm all the way in the up position you can see that it already has enough clearance.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-15-11/DSCN9469.jpg)
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This is what happens on a four year old MX bike that has not had the bearings lubricated.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-15-11/DSCN9466.jpg)
I was going to replace them anyway but I figured I'd show those non believers what happens with even relatively new bikes if you don't maintain them. :-D
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Here you can see the raised part of the swing arm that is preventing the clutch cover from bolting on.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-15-11/DSCN9473.jpg)
Just a minute or two with a hand grinder and sander.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-15-11/DSCN9474.jpg)
As you can see, this easily creates the clearance needed.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-15-11/DSCN9477.jpg)
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The clutch cover fits perfectly without machining it.
Grinding the swing arm was all that was required.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-15-11/DSCN9475.jpg)
Now for the next part, rotating the engine until the pipe clears the water elbow that sticks out from the right side of the cylinder.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-15-11/DSCN9479.jpg)
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-15-11/DSCN9478.jpg)
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Now for the next part, rotating the engine until the pipe clears the water elbow that sticks out from the right side of the cylinder.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-15-11/DSCN9479.jpg)
Invert the cylinder water pipe ( bolt it on upside down) and buy 180 degree water hose. That's how Service Honda did it on my AF!
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s301/peteegger/Wicked500ccofKawai006.jpg)
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Perfect.
I have the hose kit and was wondering if it was possible to do that.
I'll check the hoses I have.
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Right on the money.
Thanks!
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-15-11/DSCN9480.jpg)
Only thing you need is some green hoses :-D
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Right on the money.
Thanks!
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-15-11/DSCN9480.jpg)
Only thing you need is some green hoses :-D
Wow! You're on a mission! I think I do like the green better.
The bottom water pump pipe to radiator hose pipe may rub on the KIPS inspection cover depending on where you place the bottom radiator tank pipe. If Service Honda would have located the water pipe on the bottom radiator tank angled slighty forward this would not have been a clearance problem as it would have pulled the hose away from the KIPS inspection cover. They welded the bottom radiator pipe straight down. As your project progresses I can tell you everything SF did right and what they did wrong! PM me if you have questions. In most cases I can provide pictures.
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Thanks kxpegger!
You can rest assured that you will be hearing from me :-D
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1-29-11
I've been really busy and have put no time into my project... Until tonight.
My next step was figuring out how to mount the lower frame rails to the lower frame.
Keep in mind that I am not a metal worker :roll:
This is where I was at:
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/SHOP/1-27-11/123.jpg)
Both sides had the frame rails cut but I needed to remove the inner frame rails from the outer part of the frame.
So, I slowly removed the welds until I could see the crack that is between the inner frame rails from the outer part of the frame
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/SHOP/1-27-11/DSCN0637.jpg)
It only took a few minutes and they were out.
Now I am ready to tune up the rails and they will slip in nicely.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/SHOP/1-27-11/DSCN0640.jpg)
Since I do not have many fabrication tools I used the following:
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/SHOP/1-27-11/DSCN0638.jpg)
It was inexpensive and easy to use.
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To tune up the rail guides and the rails I used a small hand file.:
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX250F%202007%20PROJECT/1-29-11/DSCN0820.jpg)
With just a few minutes of filing all the edges were cleaned up nicely.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX250F%202007%20PROJECT/1-29-11/DSCN0821.jpg)
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Since I had to cut some of the length off the new frame rails I used the scrap piece to test fit the new rails.
To make it fit smooth and clean I filed two of the four corners from the test piece so that it would fit the radius of the frame guide:
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX250F%202007%20PROJECT/1-29-11/DSCN0822.jpg)
Once I filed a small bit from the two corners I was able slip the test piece in easily.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX250F%202007%20PROJECT/1-29-11/DSCN0823.jpg)
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Once I tuned up both frame rail guides I set the frame straight up to look at how well the new frame rails would fit.
Then I noticed that the frame rail guides are actually pigeon toed inward.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX250F%202007%20PROJECT/1-29-11/DSCN0819.jpg)
I took a look at the original carriage and sure enough the frame rails were bent to compensate for this.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-5-11/DSCN8148.jpg)
It's hard to see but if you look close you will see the original rails are bent out.
Since the replacement rails are straight, they will not make full contact all the way back.
However, this is not a problem as there is plenty of weld surface.
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So, you remember this guy?
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-30-11/1.jpg)
Well after a visit with Mr, Sawzall and the grinder, it looks like this:
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-30-11/DSCN0824.jpg)
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-30-11/DSCN0827.jpg)
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This gives you a really nice purchase point for the frame rails:
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/1-30-11/DSCN0830.jpg)
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Looking good Now get to welding so you can get this baby together. I got to ride mine this weekend and what a blast you will be like a kid in a candy store when you get her together. I spent half the day at the track talking about it and the other half riding.... These thing really draw some attention and if they dont in the pits once you hit the track everyone starts going what is that thing cause it don't sound like a 250
all I can say it was fun building but once complete its twice as much fun..
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I can't wait.....
I'm trying to get mine done and out for a practice ride or two before I go to the dunes.
Unfortunately I have a lot going on right now..... but I'm getting there 8-)
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Been busy with a million other things but I finally found some time to prep my engine for a rebuild.
When I originally started this project I was going to see how cheap I could do it.
As I got more into it I slowly changed my mind and decided that a full rebuild was in order.
I figured that even if I hated the bike when I got it done, I could always press in some 17mm inserts and run it in my KX5 which has a 11 year old engine that has only one ring and piston swap which was done last year.
Since I am not an engine builder I decided that I would send it off and have it rebuilt by a professional.
Unfortunately I do not know any local builders that are up to my expectations so in the mail it goes.
But, before I send it off I got thinking about if I was an engine builder, what would I like to see?
How about a dirty, grimy engine? No?
How about engine that is clean on the outside but untouched on the inside? Ok, but leaves a lot to be desired.
So, I decided that I would take it all apart, clean and inspect all the parts, and pre-order what I thought would be needed.
Of course, taking the engine completely apart means that every nut, bolt, and washer should be labeled and cleaned...
After all, do I want to pay a great engine builder to clean my parts?
So, with a little effort, every nut, bolt, and washer was cleaned and labeled to save him as much time and effort as possible.
I got as far as the exhaust valve asy today.
As you can see below, spending a few minutes cleaning can really speed up your builders inspection process.
What would you rather inspect, the valve on the left or the valve on the right?
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/2-27-11/DSCN2899.jpg)
All those engine builders out there feel free to contribute your feelings on this :-D
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To be honest it can work both ways
Since you taken your motor apart you know what condition its in and you will more then likely order most of the parts that you think it will need. Now you know what you have and the change of a engine builder selling you something you don't need is unlikely. The bad thing sometimes is the customer can do more harm by taking the motor apart that doesn't have the right tools or knowledge.
I would rather have a grease monkey motor that i have to clean and disassemble.
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I actually thought the same thing.
If I had not pulled a few thousand bikes apart and learned (sometimes the hard way) how to do it right without damage, I would have simply sent in in a lump.... Yes, a clean lump..... :-)
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One other point, if I didn't trust my engine builder I would not send him a few thousand in parts and labor :lol:
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One other point, if I didn't trust my engine builder I would not send him a few thousand in parts and labor :lol:
don't say that to loud about engine builder not beening trusted :-(
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One other point, if I didn't trust my engine builder I would not send him a few thousand in parts and labor :lol:
:x :x :x WOW don't even get me started on that topic... :x :x :x
Also.. for me personaly... the dirt and grime on the parts tell Me. storys of what condition they are in.. they talk to ya in a way...
problems that may be hard to spot on a clean part... on a dirty one can stand up and SCREAM at you.. ..
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Kx5 Power By Stewart Motorrad :?
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Kx5 Power By Stewart Motorrad :?
There is a reason there is a line through it.... with my name next to that...
EDIT: I re-aranged it... get the point across better?
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Leave it to me to hit a nerve.
Sorry guys I didn't mean to go there.
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Mike
It's all good here. :-D
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Leave it to me to hit a nerve.
Sorry guys I didn't mean to go there.
All good here also...
nothing that cant be fixed by beating myself in the head repeatedly with broken K5 parts...
Also.. for all the kiddies reading this banter.. I was not refering to Kaw Rider in any of that... I would trust him with my motor... :wink:
Just wanted to make sure that was clear...
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+1
Kaw Rider knows his stuff and will be getting a engine from me soon enough 8-)
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Been busy with a million other things but I finally found some time to prep my engine for a rebuild.
When I originally started this project I was going to see how cheap I could do it.
As I got more into it I slowly changed my mind and decided that a full rebuild was in order.
I figured that even if I hated the bike when I got it done, I could always press in some 17mm inserts and run it in my KX5 which has a 11 year old engine that has only one ring and piston swap which was done last year.
Since I am not an engine builder I decided that I would send it off and have it rebuilt by a professional.
Unfortunately I do not know any local builders that are up to my expectations so in the mail it goes.
But, before I send it off I got thinking about if I was an engine builder, what would I like to see?
How about a dirty, grimy engine? No?
How about engine that is clean on the outside but untouched on the inside? Ok, but leaves a lot to be desired.
So, I decided that I would take it all apart, clean and inspect all the parts, and pre-order what I thought would be needed.
Of course, taking the engine completely apart means that every nut, bolt, and washer should be labeled and cleaned...
After all, do I want to pay a great engine builder to clean my parts?
So, with a little effort, every nut, bolt, and washer was cleaned and labeled to save him as much time and effort as possible.
I got as far as the exhaust valve asy today.
As you can see below, spending a few minutes cleaning can really speed up your builders inspection process.
What would you rather inspect, the valve on the left or the valve on the right?
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/2-27-11/DSCN2899.jpg)
All those engine builders out there feel free to contribute your feelings on this :-D
Back on topic... sorry I ran it off in another direction...
Regarding cleaning parts before sending off.... for me personaly... the dirt and grime on the parts tell Me storys of what condition they, and the motor, are in.. they talk to ya in a way...
problems that may be hard to spot on a clean part... on a dirty one can stand up and SCREAM at you....
The dirty parts can also tell you, as a motorbuilder, issues with the customer as well... things they could be doing wrong, that will in turn destroy your perfectly good work, causing the customer to be unhappy once again..
So the parts can tell you how to fix the customer as well as their motor..
(I am reminded of Kaw Riders recent post about the V3 reeds with the Bow in them that was run at 100:1 on castor 927)..
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All valid points.
What can I say.... I couldn't help myself :roll:
When I took this 99 K5 engine down I was shocked to find the original piston and clutch basket.
The plating was still good and the basket had very little wear.
All in all I am very happy with what I see.
We are using new cases, rebuilding and balancing the crank and fly wheel, some porting and exhaust valve work, head mods, plating the cylinder, and whatever else Kaw rider feels is required to scare the nuggets out of me :-D
I can't wait.
I just have to save up a few more centavos... :cry:
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KAW RIDER has my jug & head now looking forward to getting some of his work back. From what everyone says it should be great.
Seems to me we've got side tracked here from the original question of how well do you like your "beer can". I'm working on my second right now. The first was just a trial run of can I do it & how do I want to do it. This second one I'm doing with alot more parts & cash, but I'm wondering if I wouldnt have been better off just getting a newer steelie 250. I'm worried that the welding & powdercoating will brinnel & ruin the temper of the aluminum. The last one was the best bike I have ever rode & I loved it, this one should be all that & more. But back to the original question how are these holding up? There's a pic of a CR500AF floating around with it broke right in half thats giving me nightmares. How is the frame holding up for everyone? Theads from maintenance, are the vibes of the 500 cracking crap, corrosion eating that AL up, high miles & the repeated flexing just fracturing stuff? From what I've read, after starting this project, about Japan just being low on cromoly steel that caused the use of aluminum it seems I'm shooting myself in the foot just to have better forks & geometry.
As you can see this thread does have some interest to me so what's the oppinions?
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81,
I haven't had mine long, but I've done a lot of research on these bikes, before getting one from Service. What I found is very few reports of the frames cracking. That was one of my main concerns. If the welds are done correctly it seems to be a non issue. As far as the original question as how do I like my bike. It's unbelievable. The handling, lightweight, and the horsepower who wouldn't. I was worried it would be more of a novelty bike. Definitly not the case! They are bada**!! Well I guess you know that you said you owned one. I would be preaching to the choir. I love mine it really is a 450 eater!!
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in a thread on another site we got to comparing the cr500 and kx500 motor in the trx250r frames (as i was planning on putting a cr500 motor in my spare R frame) but something about the cr motor vibes way more then the kx i beleave someone mentioned it had a lot to do with crank on the cr not being counter balanced all that well...idk if they vibe bad in a bike frame as ive never owned a cr500 just thought since u mentioned a cr500af cracking the frame and what not that i would mention a little info i picked up after thinking about putting a cr or kx 500 motor in one of my trx250r's
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They are totally awesome I just wanted some reassurance I wasnt wasting my time . I loved the last af, just with the vibes & the aluminum factor I'm concerned about longevity, I have enough into this one now I could sell before I ride & get out of it to do a steelie, but after its ridden I pretty well own it. On my frame I didnt weld or cut the Y so I should be okay structurally, & all the mount threads have steel inserts so it should be okay. Just uber paranoid I guess. Swingerarms have been aluminum for years with no issue, kinda crossed my mind awile after I posted here. Modern chassis with awesome handling really is the way to go though.
tcoop474 neither motor has a balance shaft, but the k5 is less violent , just alot smoother power delivery. Balancing the motor in either trx install would be the key.
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thanks for clearing that up bro
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How's the build coming SandBlaster? Would love to see some updates!!!
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Well....... I started building the shop last year and it took all my attention and money to get it completed.
We are working on building up some more inventory so all my dough is being tied up a bit longer.
I should start working on the bike again in a few months.
I'm working on a deal for some more K5's so I should have most of the parts I need to finish the project.
I also need to break loose and go see the welder.
He came by the shop a few months ago to see what I was doing and seemed to like what he saw.
I'll get some more updates as soon as I actually do something :-(
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Shop upgrades are always nice! Thanks for checking in and good luck with all you are doing.
Hyderrat
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I finally dropped the frame off to the welder for phase 1.
It will take him a few weeks to get it done.
No hurry on my end seeing as how I've dropped the ball on this project for the last year :|
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Hey, im a newbie to this site. But I love it! I've got an 06 KX450F frame and a 1993 KX500 I'm looking to merge together. I've just recieved my JFAB cradle pieces. I've just been cruzin the site lookin for tips on the build and i've learned alot. Was wondering what the sandblaster was gonna doin for a headstay mount. Have you got that far yet? I love the pics! ur helpin me out alot.
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There has been some controversy over that issue recently.
I have not got that far but that is next after I get the frame back from the welder.
It may be a few weeks as I will be out of town this coming weekend.
I have looked at ALL the designs on this site that showed a pic of the head stay.
I have a few idea's of incorporating the best of the designs I have seen but I have to wait until I get it all back to see if what I'm thinking will work.
I'll post pics when I get that far.
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Finally.
Here is some pics of the frame after out first trip to the weld shop.
We are having it welded in 3 steps so we can get things a little more dialed in rather then trying to weld it all at once.
It was Mig welded using 5356 filler.
The frame rails are made from 6063 aluminum.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/8-3-12%20frame%20welds/DSCN7340.jpg)
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/8-3-12%20frame%20welds/DSCN7339.jpg)
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/8-3-12%20frame%20welds/DSCN7338.jpg)
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/8-3-12%20frame%20welds/DSCN7337.jpg)
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/8-3-12%20frame%20welds/DSCN7336.jpg)
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/8-3-12%20frame%20welds/DSCN7341.jpg)
The next step will be the head stay brace and the engine mounts.
The last step will be the new radiator mounts.
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The aluminum conversions are cool. But. The 'but' for me is I do not ride motocross or crazy fast on trails any more. I am thinking I do not need the ground clearance the K5 has now. With going to 17's for the motard and aggressive tires I will loose about 3" overall but still have some dirt/sand ability. Anyone use a lower chassis for a conversion, say an enduro type? That would make it street legal easily, and have the stupid big power of the beast. Just curious. I think the majority of folks on here are either track guys or desert guys, but someone may have heard of an 'other' conversion.
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You could always try stuffing a K5 into a KLX/KLR chassis.
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Some time ago I saw a post on here where someone used a flush mount insert of some sort to attach the engine mount tabs to the frame.
The nice thing about this design was that you could completely remove the mounting tabs to make removing and installing the engine easier.
I can't find the post on here anywhere.
Does anyone remember where that post is at?
Also, if anyone has any pro's or con's about using a head stay in the front of the engine rather then coming off the back I'd like to hear about it.
Thanks!
SB
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The head stay made it in today:
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/11-7-12%20HEAD%20STAY/3.jpg)
Now I can start making all the mounting brackets and get them welded on.
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Keep the info coming. I'm a few steps behins you! lol
Want to get the bike ready to race next year in the "over 40's". (More like "over the hill!)
Just need to get some metalwork removed from my knee, then I'll be sorted.
Cheers
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I'm working on it but I have to divide my time and money between this build and my SM :-(
Hey, it's only money :-)
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I ordered some aluminum plate for my mounts.
Should be here in about a week... :-(
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This is what the aluminum plate is for..
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=40)
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How does the wall thickness of the new lower rails compare to the stock frame?
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Hmmm,,, I'll check it out tomorrow and let you know.
From memory they were very close but I'll verify
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In the mean time I am trying to figure out how I want to mount the engine mounts.
I know a lot of guys weld the mounts directly to the frame but it will make engine removal in this 250F frame all that much harder.
So, I am thinking about drilling through the square tubes and welding in aluminum tubing and running bolts all the way through the frame tubes.
Here is an example:
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=42)
What do you think about that?
Or, do you have a better idea?
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How does the wall thickness of the new lower rails compare to the stock frame?
The replacement wall is .125"
The stock is approx .100"
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Here is a more detailed pic of the mounts:
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=51)
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Im scared to death of my frame breaking with out holes through the rails thanks to my mistake of going to george at MPS but it may be a differnt animal for you it would be alot neater looking.
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Yeah, there are good and bad points to doing like I want but I think the good outweighs the bad.
Thanks for your input.
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In the mean time I am trying to figure out how I want to mount the engine mounts.
I know a lot of guys weld the mounts directly to the frame but it will make engine removal in this 250F frame all that much harder.
So, I am thinking about drilling through the square tubes and welding in aluminum tubing and running bolts all the way through the frame tubes.
Here is an example:
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=42)
What do you think about that?
Or, do you have a better idea?
ahh.. the AF section.... the section of the site Im never in.... But since My presance was requested..
where on the frame tube would this end up? middle?
Take a picture with you pointing at the frame where the hoels would be...
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Not too revelent but I am doing my CRF250 to KX500 and in the section to raise the Y I put solid stock in then drilled and tapped for removable front mounts. Will post pix soon.
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(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=42)
That's the best way to load that rail. Make the wall thickness of the tubes as thick as possible to prevent buckling under compression. Not a place to try and save weight. A M8-1.25 SHCS (Class 12.9) can generate about 6000 lb. clamping force.
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Thanks Larry.
There are easier ways but I think it is the best so it's time to find some tubing...
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Here is what that aluminum block is for (It's not welded just yet):
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=52)
Now that I have that one made I will make all the other mounts and drill out the frame tubes for the aluminum tubing.
Looks like I will have to use 5/8 OD x 1/8" wall 6061.
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(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=52)
Will the aluminum block capture the head mount so well that engine removal is impossible without removing the head nuts first?
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I haven't actually tried it but I assume that the nuts will have to be removed before the engine can be removed.
I know it's not ideal but so far I can't find a better way of securing the head.
The last thing I want is broken frame rails..
Do you have a better idea?
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Do you have a better idea?
I like the 2 plate system Kawasaki used for the head mount on the stock KX500. Upon disassembly, it's completly out of the way. Very forgiving of positional errors on assembly.
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I agree.
The problem is I haven't seen any 250F conversions that had a good design for that due to the overall geometry of the frame, tank, ect.
Based on the designs I have seen I think that it why some have broken their frame rails.
If you have some good pics of a 250f conversion head stay mounting area I would be grateful.
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Can you put 2 tubes (like lower mount) through the down tube and still get the tank to fit?
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I'll take a look in the morning :-)
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Instead of using a huge U shaped piece of aluminum on the frame to mount to the bracket how about just a simple wedge sort of like this?
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/KellyLee1970/motorcycle/headstayidea.jpg)
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This is a 2006 kx 250f frame that was done by Jerry and the ims 3 gal tank fits with no problem hope this will help.
http://s1296.beta.photobucket.com/user/SHLEPY500/media/IMG_0783.jpg.html#/user/SHLEPY500/media/IMG_0786.jpg.html?&_suid=135493337071907457251697957659
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Instead of using a huge U shaped piece of aluminum on the frame to mount to the bracket how about just a simple wedge sort of like this?
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/KellyLee1970/motorcycle/headstayidea.jpg)
I had considered that exact design but when it came to strength I feel the way I am doing it is the strongest.
Here is what I had come up with:
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=66)
The huge aluminum block started as 2" x 1 3/8" x 1 1/4"
After a few minutes of machine time it does not weigh very much :-)
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This is a 2006 kx 250f frame that was done by Jerry and the ims 3 gal tank fits with no problem hope this will help.
http://s1296.beta.photobucket.com/user/SHLEPY500/media/IMG_0783.jpg.html#/user/SHLEPY500/media/IMG_0786.jpg.html?&_suid=135493337071907457251697957659
Thanks!
It's kind of hard to tell what view that is but I think it is using the stock location of the 250F frame.
I originally was going to do something similar to that and I might still.
If one head mount is good, 2 might be better :-o
(http://mob1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag5/SHLEPY500/IMG_0783.jpg)
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I had considered that exact design but when it came to strength I feel the way I am doing it is the strongest.
My concern was not weight but of strength. Just not as much welding on the main downtube. Basically the single block only affects one side of the downtube whereas the larger block affects three sides as you would be welding all the way to each side. Eh, just me over thinking stuff as usual! :-D
I do agree that two head mounts might be the way to go. My bike won't be seeing any big air as it will be a desert/hare scramble bike but I don't want to chance cracked/broken rails. I know I plan to use the head mount like is SHLEPY's pic but might add the front mount as well. Of course, I will using a KDX250 engine and not a KX500 so there should be a little more room to work with. I would do the front like what I suggested in my other post but with the front bracket like this (sorry I butchered your pic!) to make engine R&R easier...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/KellyLee1970/motorcycle/mount.jpg)
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No problem on the pic :-P that is what thread is all about, R&D.
There are tons of good ways and bad ways to do this.
I would never have attempted anything like this before reading all the good info on this site.
The more ideas expressed the better chance of getting the best combo.
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Because a few people had problems breaking their frame rails I wanted to be sure I understood where the transfer of energy was taking place at.
Here is a rough diagram of where the mounting points are in relation to the frame.
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=72)
As you can see, when coming down hard on a jump the force is transferred in a radial motion pivoting on the 17mm swing arm pivot pin.
So, the rear head stay must be in line as much as possible with the direction of the force to prevent the engine from rotating forward and putting the cradle under tension.
Having the front mount on the head helps to stop any force that is trying to be transferred to the frame rails.
On further review I believe that if I remove the gas tank I can remove the engine without having to remove the front head stay.
Although when I get further into this I will test that theory :-o
Here is some pics of the different views.
Nothing is welded yet but you get the idea:
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=76)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=75)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=74)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=73)
That's my story and I'm sticking to it for now :D
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(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=75)
I like that! Should work great at supporting the engines weight.
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Time will tell.
Once this is done I will put my sponsored rider on it and let him do a few practice days on it.
With the kind of air he pulls off that will certainly show whether or not this is a good idea.
Then I will abuse it with hours of trail riding and perhaps a few trips to the dunes.
If it holds up to all that, I'll know this was a good decision :lol:
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I finally got the engine mounts done.
It's amazing how long this stuff takes when you don't have the proper tools :(
The front and lower mounts came out exactly as I planned in that they would be exactly the same size as each other.
Yeah, I got lucky :D
The top mounts are completely different as you would expect.
The only change was on the lower left side of the engine there is a protuberance that requires the mount to be slightly machined for clearance.
It's all good as I was able to make them all the same, drill them, and then machine one of them to fit.
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=77)
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Experimenting with bolting the engine mounts on.
Talk about chatter :D
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=82)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=83)
Got it welded and then assembled:
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=88)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=89)
Then I put a torque wrench on it.
Set it for 30lb and started putting pressure on it.
I was never able to get the wrench to click and I started pulling the bolt through :-o
Better to find out now on a test piece then drill out my frame and have it ruined.
I think I will try to use a cap screw.
It will stick out slightly but it will be much stronger as I won't have to counter sink the hole.
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=90)
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Yes, better to find out now! Thanks for sharing what you are doing and please keep us posted!
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The bolt you pictured is stainless.. Big NO NO in load bearing use
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The bolt you pictured is stainless.. Big NO NO in load bearing use
Funny you should mention that. Guess how many load bearing stainless bolts we use on the MH-60T Jayhawk? Almost all of them, or Titanium like the wrist pin I made was out of a Ti upper pitch control rod bolt for the main rotor head. The main rotor blades are also held on with 8 3/4" diameter stainless bolts. That is some decent load bearing. Four 280 lb rotor blades being swing at 260 rpm by almost 4000 hp. I have to take a cold shower just thinking about it. But, aircraft grade is different too :-D
I always enjoy our talks :lol:
Alex
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A helicopter is several thousand parts flying in close formation for a short period of time. :evil:
Back to motor mounts. Socket head cap screws or hex bolts (grade 12.9) and thick, hardened washers will help spread the clamping force. Button head screws suck, no matter what material they're made of.
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They are a big ceiling fan, when the fan stops, the pilot really sweats :-D
I like a 12 pt flanged head myself.
A helicopter is several thousand parts flying in close formation for a short period of time. :evil:
Back to motor mounts. Socket head cap screws or hex bolts (grade 12.9) and thick, hardened washers will help spread the clamping force. Button head screws suck, no matter what material they're made of.
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Thanks for all the info guys.
Helicopters are really cool but I don't plan on that much air time :-D
I'm just trying to figure out a clean way to attach the motor mounts to the frame without welding.
And, I won't be using SS.
That was a quick and easy pic for representation that I borrowed from a Google search.
Any suggestions besides having a big bolt sticking out of my frame rails?
12 pt flanged head?
(http://www.nuttybolts.com/catalog/images/BF12%20-%20Flange%20Bolt%20-%2012-Pt%20-%20Alloy%20Stl.jpg)
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You don't want any bolt head on the inside of the frame rail?
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In the Marine Corps I was Aircrew and an Avionics man on CH-53E's.....thats MY baby in the backround.....don't mind my buddy that is hog tied with chain....we were bored in Afganistan one day... :-D If you look at my avatar picture, thats me re-fueling my bird in Kandahar.
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/417004_3783188790452_1141480454_n.jpg)
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You are not the one that is hog tied?
In the Marine Corps I was Aircrew and an Avionics man on CH-53E's.....thats MY baby in the backround.....don't mind my buddy that is hog tied with chain....we were bored in Afganistan one day... :-D
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/417004_3783188790452_1141480454_n.jpg)
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Who is that skinny ass guy on the left??!!
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Nope.....I'm the one with glasses.....my "pre-lasik" days. 8-)
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Who is that skinny ass guy on the left??!!
That was my good twin "skinny Oscar" back in 2004.
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Who is that skinny ass guy on the left??!!
Hey Motorrad....you wanna talk skinny? Check this one out...hahahaha
Bagram Afghanistan 2004
(http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/126/aeaadad94f1b44f78d4e5814430b0257/l.jpg)
(http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/137/8a9401943ee54e43b595a3e6bc4f0489/l.jpg)
Here are a few more shots of me and the Super Stallion in action.
(http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/151/47cc64134ab44b5f92410dc2140a37bf/l.jpg)
(http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/133/22a9c5b09f98425c9cbfa9b64c295753/l.jpg)
(http://a3.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/126/29590ec4312746549e2e4645adbf8520/l.jpg)
(http://a3.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/115/475072f791074684b003e85f1251f4fa/l.jpg)
SORRY, DIDN'T MEAN TO HIJACK THIS THREAD.........I'll shut up now. :-D
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You don't want any bolt head on the inside of the frame rail?
Inside the frame rails would be fine.
Are you suggesting that I weld in a solid plug of aluminum, then drill it and tap it?
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and install a time-sert??
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Oh yeah........ :-D
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Then again welding might not be a bad option except for trying to get the engine out... :|
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Any updates there, sandblaster?
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No, I've had a lot going on and what little time I do have has been put toward my Street Tard project.
I'm to the point where I need to start trying different radiators and carb to air box boots.
I have seen the different ones used by our members but since I have a few hundred different boots and radiator set's in my junk piles I figured I would see what else might work :lol:
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...since I have a few hundred different boots and radiator set's in my junk piles I figured I would see what else might work :lol:
Definitely keep us posted on what works, could work with mods, and just flat out won't, please!
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Of course :-D
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I had my frame welded up just before Christmas. I didn't want the front mounts welded to the frame either. I've always thought they looked "half arsed", and a time/cost cutting method. And as mentioned, getting the engine in and out is tricky to say the least.
Tubes were welded into the rails with bolts passing right through from the outside, holding the mounting plate on the inside. The completed job looks "right", in my opinion.
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Can you post a pic of what you did?
Thanks!
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I thought that request might be coming! lol
The fella doing the work, and I stress it is all his work (I just told him how I'd like it), lives about an hours drive away from me. I have some parts ordered which are not due to arrive for a week or so. But as soon as they do, I'll be dropping them off and take a few pics. If you're not in any rush, might be some help to you.
Cheers
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No rush on my end.
I still have a lot to do :-D
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/brooksiebrooks/8326753929/in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/brooksiebrooks/8326753929/in/photostream/)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brooksiebrooks/8327813190/in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/brooksiebrooks/8327813190/in/photostream/)
Not sure if I'm doing this right. But here are a few pics of the rails and lower mount welded.
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Flickr makes it a bit harder to post your pics.
Here they are and thanks!
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8498/8326753929_74aa7a853a_b.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8500/8327813190_eaf12f8d71_b.jpg)
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Well, I was heating and bending my tank and managed to burn a hole clean through it :-o
Oh well, at least I have a better idea how much to try and heat...
Another member spoke of using a 99 kx125/250 petcock valve.
That may work on a 450 conversion but you would gain no advantage on a 250 conversion at least from 06-08.
The trick is bending the petcock valve out away from the head and forward.
So, if anyone has a stock 06-08 kx250f tank, I'm looking for one :-D
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I was the one who used the 99 125 petcock but mine is a 250f frame with a 250 motor in it
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That explains that :-D
Thanks!
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Just received my 2000 CR250 air box boot today and it is very close to the 98-99 CR250 boot but the 2000 is just a little slimmer and a bit more refined.
So that means I will be using the 2000 boot unless I find something better I like.
The 98-99 boot is on the left and the 2000 is on the right.
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=571)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=572)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=573)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=574)
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I made it to the weld shop today.....Engine mounts are in so now I need to start seeing how my rads will fit.... And I need another gas tank...
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Made a trip to the welders last week and got all the mounts welded up.
You can remove and install the engine if you remove the gas tank.
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1293)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1294)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1295)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1296)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1297)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1298)
So lets see, I need a coil mount, cdi mount, mod the left radiator, make the spacers, build a engine, clean it all up, and put it together... :roll:
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(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=52)
Will the aluminum block capture the head mount so well that engine removal is impossible without removing the head nuts first?
Finally answered this question today...
The engine will come out without removing the head nuts :-D
I removed all the engine mount bolts.
I removed the rear mounts from the back of the head.
I pulled the swing arm pin out just far enough to release the engine.
I also had to remove the tank.
Other then that it took about 20 seconds to have the engine out on my bench.
With all that being said, I have not tried a complete engine with the side covers and carb on.
I will try that next week when I get my experimental engine...
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Here is the next challenge..
The gas tank hits the head even without the petcock valve.
As shown earlier, I destroyed my last tank so I will be a bit more careful when molding this one ;)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1428)
Using a Petcock valve and remote reservoir from a KLX450 will help the problem but it is not a cure all...
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1429)
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I think your engine is turned backwords to much Sandblaster.
Mine cylinder is almost hitting the frame, I even used two flat head allenbolts at the small cover above the exhaust.
Dutchie
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Yep, I should have angled it down a bit more.
No biggie... it will fit with a little hot water :-)
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Did you ever finish adding up the cost? Sorry I may have missed it, how much was it after selling the old parts?
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At one point I had money in my pocket :-D
I don't really know where I'm at right now because it's mixed in with my supermoto project but as a rough guess I'd say about 3K when I'm done.