KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Steel Frame Conversion (SFC) => Topic started by: KXer on December 15, 2008, 02:49:41 AM
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Well the time finally came to get off my butt and get the K5 engine (that has been sitting in my garage for 6 months) in my 01 KX250.
Well, got the project started, no big headaches just yet. Got the 500 sitting in the frame with the bottom engine mount bolted. I have the front engine mounts ground off as well as the rear head stay on the K5. I was also able to mount my kx250 radiators using the stock mounting locations without any modifications needed. Unfortunately that is where my project is at a pause since I am waiting on a new swingarm and my shorty plugs to arrive in the mail.
Left todo:
-Shorten the swingarm mounts and spacers once I get the new swingarm.
-Fab new front engine mounts.
-Fab a new head stay.
-Figure out my pipe situation. (I am thinking though that I will just bite the bullet and buy the one from AJ that he uses on the KX500AFX - I think it will fit)
-Helicoil (sp?) the oil plug as the previous owner of the k5 jb welded the plug in, so I am assuming it is stripped.
-Should also get a new clutch/case cover as this one has been "repaired" - this would just be a peace of mind deal though.
-Reassemble.
-Fire her up.
Here is the frame:
(http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/26/l_dd869eb9b4054d5283480923a0d9ad4c.jpg)
and the power plant:
(http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/54/l_fc990335d6ff4f1f8f3d3dbb9b692aa3.jpg)
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sounds good man. Its a fun project. Let me know if you have any questions about anything. I'm having a pipe made for mine right now. I MIGHT have it back next year if i'm lucky. I can already tell this guy is a total slacker.
As for AJ's pipe, from what I read it wont be a bolt up deal, you'll need to modify it "some" but it is the closest premade pipe for the job.
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Ya thats what I read in your thread. It still seems easier than getting a custom one done up, but we'll see.
Any chance you have some pictures of the head stay you made. I understand how you did it, but pics make it easier. Oh and I decided to do all the work myself too (not that shop that you and I talked about via PM's), its been a WAY easier project than I anticipated.
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I'll take some pics of the headstay when i get the bike back.
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FedEX brought me my new swingarm in the mail today and it came with good needle bearrings and spacers. Now I just need to find a machine shop to cut down the spacers, the swingarm I can do myself.
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Latest Update:
- Drilled out the engine to the 17mm (much harder than I thought, what is that a hardened steel sleeve?)
- Cut down the new swingarm and spacers
- built a new front engine mount, and fabricated a 1 piece head stay. (we had to build it out of thinner metal than I wanted, but we will see how long it lasts)
- With the use of a heat gun I was able to fit my desert tank (waiting on my shorty plugs to complete fitment)
- Made a exhaust "sleeve" so I can use all of the 250 silencers that I already have (spark arrestor, shorty, and some other one)
Tomorrow I will be putting the bike back together, still waiting on my pipe from service honda and a new spring from Fineline to complete the bike. I will take some pictures tomorrow as well.
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Latest Update:
- Drilled out the engine to the 17mm (much harder than I thought, what is that a hardened steel sleeve?)
- Cut down the new swingarm and spacers
- built a new front engine mount, and fabricated a 1 piece head stay. (we had to build it out of thinner metal than I wanted, but we will see how long it lasts)
- With the use of a heat gun I was able to fit my desert tank (waiting on my shorty plugs to complete fitment)
- Made a exhaust "sleeve" so I can use all of the 250 silencers that I already have (spark arrestor, shorty, and some other one)
Tomorrow I will be putting the bike back together, still waiting on my pipe from service honda and a new spring from Fineline to complete the bike. I will take some pictures tomorrow as well.
Be sure you got enough of ID(innerdia) for your silencer of a 250cc,easy to blow a hole in piston,better safe and sorry! :cry:
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Doordie,
It really makes that much of a difference? The 250 silencer ID is the same as the ID on the 500 pipe. But if it is that much of an issue I'll buy a new silencer for sure.
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Doordie,
It really makes that much of a difference? The 250 silencer ID is the same as the ID on the 500 pipe. But if it is that much of an issue I'll buy a new silencer for sure.
Is it same ID,no problem! 8-)
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So the SH pipe came in on Wednesday last week. As noted, to get it to fit I had to dent it in a bit around the water pump hose, and I cut off the rear of the pipe all together. and for mounting I used my KX250 head stay triangle plate and bolted it to the pipe and then hose clamped the mount to the frame (ran out of time, to get this pig to the desert, I will be welding it to the frame). Hope that makes sense.
Finally fired her up on Thursday, and she sounds healthy. Headed out to Glamis on Friday where apparantly I didn't dent the pipe enough around that hose, and it finally burnt a hole through it and I started dripping coolant. Headed back to camp where I pulled the pipe off, dented it some more, then used a 90 degree elbow piece of radiator hose and fit it back in to place (with the bend going towards the cylinder, not the pipe). Then I added high temp silicone, and wrapped it in tin foil. And finally, as I put the pipe back on I can see where I need to add a new rear mount.
Bike ran great after that until Sunday where I either blew the water pump seal or my base gasket as I have coolant in my transoil. So I will be tearing in to the engine in the next week or 2, but man is this bike fast now. Pulls like a freight train. I think I am going to go down a tooth in the front and run a 15/48 combo and see how she likes that.
Plans now for the bike are:
new chain and sprockets,
new carb spring (seemed too loose for me)
10 cup rear paddle
possibly a new piston and rings as I don't know how hard this engine was run before I bought it)
More loctite for ALL of the bolts hahaha
rear view mirror so I don't have to turn around to see my friends on 250 2T's and 450's haha (just kidding)
I have pics that I will try to upload later.
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Oh, and also to finish the desert tank fitment as this thing is a thirsty girl.
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I'm getting ready to fit a pipe to my '02 project so your info is timely. Please post pics of the pipe fitment issues if you can. I really don't want to screw up a new pipe. It's hard to imagine how there was a clearance issue with the rad hose.
How did the silencer situation work out?
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Sorry if that wasn't clear. Not the radiator hose connecting the radiators, but the hose coming from the cylinder to the waterpump. I don't have pics of how I had to dent it in as it isn't pretty (banged it out with a couple different hammers).
The silencer worked out great as it is the same inner diameter as the pipe is. So I slid a piece of chromoly over both and used high temp RTV silicone to seal and hold them. No issues with that at all.
I'd just like to say that I am STOKED on the Service Honda pipe as it made the job very easy, and only took minor modification to complete. I had a shipping issue with them and I am waiting to hear how that gets resolved. AJ went above and beyond to make sure the shipping department sent my pipe in time, Thanks again AJ.
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Here are 2 pics that I have right now.
(http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/47/l_0be5316e1ba44fcda0fbe5060bb88673.jpg)
Scratch that I can only access this one right now. Don't mind the clutch cover, that will be replaced as soon as I can find a replacement.
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Here is the front.
(http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/26/l_eaff5460346040f7acad522c84054506.jpg)
You get the idea of what I am going for with that front mount. I will be welding on 2 small tabs onto the frame and then bolting the triangle bracket (I will also be making this out of steel) to the new SH pipe.
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Nice.... Better put the rubber insulator in there or you will be welding on the chrome/nickel soon! I'm not trying to be critical it all looks great. JFAB
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Nice.... Better put the rubber insulator in there or you will be welding on the chrome/nickel soon! I'm not trying to be critical it all looks great. JFAB
I will be for sure. This was a quick weekend trip to shake out the bugs. I think I've shaken them out and I can complete my conversion soon. Speaking of which, any chance you will be making clutch covers, preferrably with the ability to pull just the clutch out? Your stator covers look slick.
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Thank you sooooo much for the pics. I see where you have a clearance issue. I'm wondering how it fits on an AF bike. The pipe to cylinder clearance shouldn't be different should it?
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A little late but look at this:
(http://www.kxriders.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4536.0;attach=3411;image)
The elbow nipple appears to be turned upside down and a long hose is used to connect. Can't see if there is anything changed on the water pump end.
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Nice.... Better put the rubber insulator in there or you will be welding on the chrome/nickel soon! I'm not trying to be critical it all looks great. JFAB
I will be for sure. This was a quick weekend trip to shake out the bugs. I think I've shaken them out and I can complete my conversion soon. Speaking of which, any chance you will be making clutch covers, preferrably with the ability to pull just the clutch out? Your stator covers look slick.
I may be machining my stock clutch cover to do that but I think cost would keep most people from buying a billit (if you will) clutch cover. Who knows?
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When I did my 250/500 hybrid , I used FMF 450/500 system .
The front mount I used kx250 06 rubber insulator , they seem to be stronger then the kx500 ones.
Bolted direct to orignal kx250 01 mount .The gap from insulator to FMF pipe was joined by a bit of flat alumiun held by high tensile bolts,nylon nuts worked well so far. Had to dent pipe for clearence around coolant pipe on right hand side of cyclinder.
I have a spare clutch cover with a crack on face perfect candidate for clutch cover mod, I just wondering if a
kx250/ 450 cover comes close . does anyone knows?
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cool to see it all together!
on the KXAf's we do run a different hose set up between the water pump and cylinder..
we were hand making a fitting and hosw,,
but then ended up having complete silicone hose kits made up..
i need to get the pricing for the hose kit figured out and we'll offer them to you guys who might need it..?
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AJ,
As I said in that e-mail, I would definitely be interested in a "Hose kit" once you figure out pricing.
Thanks man.
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I would be too, but wondering if they would work with my stock bike before conversion.
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Nice.... Better put the rubber insulator in there or you will be welding on the chrome/nickel soon! I'm not trying to be critical it all looks great. JFAB
I will be for sure. This was a quick weekend trip to shake out the bugs. I think I've shaken them out and I can complete my conversion soon. Speaking of which, any chance you will be making clutch covers, preferrably with the ability to pull just the clutch out? Your stator covers look slick.
I may be machining my stock clutch cover to do that but I think cost would keep most people from buying a billit (if you will) clutch cover. Who knows?
Here's a picture of my removeable clutch cover, it was way more work than it was worth, if someone actually had one for sale I think I'd buy one.
This is on a 05 250f conversion, pretty sure it would work on an aluminum frame as well.
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Nice work Don. That is a piece of art right there. I would love to have something like that.
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KXer, did you fit your oversized tank on the bike? I'm wanting to do the same and wanted some direction.
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It needs to go under the heat gun again for final fitment. That has been a back burner as I am still waiting on my water pump seal and counter shaft o-ring seal. The desert tank will be next though as this is a thirsty pig. lol.
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Well my bike has been kicking my arse. After the initial shake down, I found that I had oil leaking from the counter shaft (o-ring) and the water pump (seal). well I replaced them both. In doing so I have been trying to figure out a better way to dent in the pipe around the radiator hose coming out of the cylinder. I'm close. I dented the pipe a bit more, and then wrapped the hose in header wrap. We will see after this weekend how it held up. In doing so I seem to have stripped one of the threads in the cylinder. d**n.
Then I found the counter shaft to still be leaking with the new o-ring so I went to ACE Hardware and bought a new o-ring with the same ID but larger OD. Fit that on the shaft and then had to grind down the spacer just a hair. Seems to be holding oil now.
Heading out to Glamis tomorrow morning, I'll report back with how she did. I'll try to get more pics up too.
Still no desert tank. Haven't made it back into the shop.
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The pipe is pretty tight, even after lovingly massaged, what I do when it's time to come off is drain the coolant and loosen the hose clamp and 2 srews on the cylinder and it comes off no problem, but of course its a 500 so you don't hardly ever have to take it off.
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I need some updates on that desert tank! I cant get too far on my stock tank =(
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As of right now that desert tank is a bust. Using the heat gun on the bottom I had to completely remove material above the spark plug. After doing all of the plastic welding I saw fit, I let it sit for 2 days holding water. It didn't hold water, leaked about a quart out.
I will try some more plastic welding, and then I am thinking of coating the entire area with RTV silicone. I think that will be the ticket.
I have bigger fish to fry at the moment. While out riding in Glamis last weekend, my drainplug fell out (completely stripped, from the previous owner) at the flagpole (We were camped off Gecko). Its about 8 miles or so to camp and we had 1 hour til sunset. With some ghetto engineering, I was able to silcone/ JB weld/ ziptie a frisbee holding it in place - we made it back. About an hour or so after sunset, you could still see with no lights, just not well. Held together all say Sunday too :D
Bike is torn back down right now. Found some stress cracks in the cylinder, hoping I hear back from Stewart soon (e-mail). I think I may take her all the way down to bare frame, finish the Kawasaki unfinished welds on the frame, gusset the craddle, and powder coat. I am leaning towards black (frame, swingarm etc) ~ still undecided.
Jfab, if you happen to read this, I would also like to pick up a stator cover, and welded up head stay (mine cracked last weekend too).
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So a bit of an update:
- My cylinder is with Stewart right now, getting rewelded, and replated.
- Should have it back in a couple weeks, with a cleaned power valve, power valve bolt, ported piston mods and some head work
- Just finished today welding in gusstes on the bottom (2) engine mounts, and the (2) forward engine mounts. Also, plated in part of the frame at the bottom, and welded up the unfinished welds left by Kawasaki.
- Picked up the bottom end from a machine shop today where he built me a new drain plug.
Will have a new jfab head stay shortly.
Bike goes in to powder coat later this week, I can't wait to get this all back together.
Pics to follow soon.
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Here is how she looks right now... (with now functional desert tank)
(http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/99/l_b387c4e3af234287ad3564f692914538.jpg)
I am digging the all black frame/ swingarm
(http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/80/l_2d33f2c89e9d423b955e33c8742ded37.jpg)
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Any special tricks to getting the tank to fit?
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Any special tricks to getting the tank to fit?
Well, I used a heat gun, plastic tipped hammer (though any decent hammer would also work), and a large file. I had to completely change the shape of the bottom of the tank (right where it meets the head) with the heat gun and hammer. Once it was reshaped and fit the bike and clearance for the sparkplug I found there was still a pinhole leak.
Found a "Plastic gas tank repair kit" at Kragen Auto parts, (which is basically a fiberglass kit, with cheese cloth, resin and hardener). so i fiberglass the bottom back in, then sanded down the area and also used a tube of superglue around the edges. Tested it with water - no leaks, then tested it with premixed fuel and is holding up great.
I will try to remember to snap some photos of the bottom of the desert tank tomorrow.
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**UPDATE** SHE RUNS!! I can't say thank you enough for Stewart and the work he put in to my cylinder. I highly recommend him for any K5 engine work!
I will have pics in the next few days, but here is a brief list of what I did while she was down:
New cylinder plating with window mod piston, and cleaned power valve.
Also picked up a Vforce reed block from Stewart
Head stay from Jerry )Jfab) which worked out great for me as well with a slight modification
New carb from Sudco (running a 172 main, in the 2nd position
Air box vents (3) on each side
FINALLY finished desert tank. IT IS A PITA, to get this right, and in the long run ended up having to fiberglass and epoxy the bottom any way.
Gusseted and plated frame
Black powder coated fram, subframe, triple clamps, and swing arm.
I am heading to Glamis this weekend. Broke in the piston earlier today.
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Some pics:
Right side
(http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/109/l_3fb0ee798b6d47a0b205188a0926baeb.jpg)
Left side
(http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/107/l_dc5e16af3d774d758c9bf0e99a59f14b.jpg)
Air box vents
(http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/106/l_56f1e4c49b904c15acfbbb7d3875f735.jpg)
Gusseted engine mounts
(http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/86/l_e8fe611bb5c04e98a1acff362dc02e85.jpg)
Front
(http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/108/l_1e44bad0a6154632958c17c3c6b894d5.jpg)
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Looks real good.
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My build got moved into the right section.
Only update is that the desert tank is finally mounted. PITA, I'd say more trouble then it was worth, but I have almost a whole extra gallon fuel capacity now. Last sand trip of the season coming up in a few weeks, I'll try to get some new pics up.
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KXer if your tank fails you one day i wounder how a KDX tank might work ? or there's the fork mounted type the small size is just under a gallon (.8 ) so ten miles into your ride or so its almost empty and the gas is in the main tank they don't just bolt on but probably less work then you desert tank just a thought JM
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Do you think a KDX tank might work in the KX frame?
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KXer if your tank fails you one day i wounder how a KDX tank might work ? or there's the fork mounted type the small size is just under a gallon (.8 ) so ten miles into your ride or so its almost empty and the gas is in the main tank they don't just bolt on but probably less work then you desert tank just a thought JM
I saw that you had the number plate aux tank, that wouldn't work for me due to the W.E.R. steering damper I have mounted on the fender. I had to cut up my front number plate pretty good. I wonder though, how the added APPROX 5lbs (.8 ga) of fuel changes the handling on that bike. Let me know as I am interested.
On a side ARGH!?! note, went to swap on my knobbies and noticed that I had race gas on the floor (under the bike). Meaning that the pre mixed race gas that was still in the tank from 2 weeks ago, ate through the fiberglass patch work. MAN, what a PITA !! What will seal that tank better than epoxy, RTV, fiberglass, superglue (lol) etc? I really don't want this bike catching on fire under my seat.
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Been riding the beast at the local MX tracks, and found out last night that both my head stay AND front engine mount are broken. How are other engine mounts holding up on the conversions? My engine mounts were gusseted and everything, oh well. I need to add another pipe mount anyway.
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Been riding the beast at the local MX tracks, and found out last night that both my head stay AND front engine mount are broken. How are other engine mounts holding up on the conversions? My engine mounts were gusseted and everything, oh well. I need to add another pipe mount anyway.
This is what I am afraid of. I was wondering how the front mounts on everybodies steel frame bikes have been holding up.
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Been riding the beast at the local MX tracks, and found out last night that both my head stay AND front engine mount are broken. How are other engine mounts holding up on the conversions? My engine mounts were gusseted and everything, oh well. I need to add another pipe mount anyway.
Pics of the problem areas would help us with suggestions......
torch
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I wounder if any other builds have broken front mounts ? and what kind of head stay he's using
If mine brakes i might sleeve the frame and use the stock engine plates off the 500 i was going to do this but the 250 frame is narrower and i didn't want to flatten the tubes but if it brake is on
just an idea JM
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My 2002 is fine. My front mounts are simply the sock 250 mounts cut down. I did a bunch of practice welding on a junk 250 frame until I got my mig welds to look just like the factory welds and then went for it. As for my head stay I had a couple of funny comments made about my bike when I was building it. One was when I asked my buddy charlie tredwell who builds race car chassis if he thought my head stay was going to be strong enough. He said ya it would be strong enough for a shock mount on a trophy truck. I think the importance of and the designe of the head stay has been missunderstood by quite a few people, especially on the steel frame bikes. I realized how much demand was put on the head stay when I learned that the kx500 would blow fiber head gaskets do to the head flexing in the head stay area.
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My forward enging mount had/ has a 90* gusset on it for strength. The actual engine mounts are 3/16ish thick (think shock tabs), and the head stay was the piece together unit from Jfab, with double row tig welds. It "seemed" to be bulletproof.
Does the head stay need to be rubber mounted?
I have yet to take it apart to see what failed on the head stay, I'm assuming the steel became brittle after welding, grinding, welding etc getting it 100% perfect. Also have a good idea of how i will add a gusset down the center for the 3rd headstay for this monster.
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If you try two weld thick metel to thin metal you will either get the thin metal way to hot in order to wled the thick metal and this will result in embrittlement and cause the base metal to fail. Or if you run at the right heat for the thin metal you will not get good penetration on the thick metal and you will have a cold weld that will break off the thick metal. I would imagine you had a hard time with this, probably did some grinding and some hole filling during this would be my guess.
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hey kx'r we need to see where yours broke I'm thinking it cracked the down tube if so you could get a piece of 0.45 tubing and split it use about five inch piece remove your old mount and weld any cracks grind it smooth then slide half over the back side of the down tube and weld it top to bottom don't weld around the tube then use 1/8 inch flat plate make your engine plate about four inch long and weld it to your doubler we'd like to help with your problem any way we can JM note this might not be the best idea
I also used stock mount trimmed down so far its good also BDI's head stay is well built and definitely not a week link 8-)
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I was gonna use thicker mounts on my bike but after reading BDIs comment Ill stick to the trimmed down stock mounts.
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The engine mount crack is not on the frame or the weld, the steel gusset snapped. - will get pics tuesday ~ hopefully
The head stay cracked after the weld - again, I'll put pics up Tuesday.
Thanks for the input.
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I like the idea of grafting the KX500 cradle into the 250 frame. Having never tried this I have no idea if it would work or not. The best thing to do is use the 250 mounts and do it just like the factory did in my opinion. I think this is one of those cases where over kill is your enemy. Also if you notice the factory starts there mig welds before the the mount and ends it after the mount. This is done so there is no cold weld to start a crack.
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UPDATE:
Took the bike from so cal to Colorado. pulled it apart, the headstay plate (that gets used to grab the 5 head studs) snapped in half. This was because the nut came loose that holds the heads stay to the frame. . . my bad. Gusset on the front engine mount was cracked, engine mount was not. . . yet. Fixed both.
Rejetted for the elevation and the bike fired up. let it warm up and then it died. swapped the plug to find it was fouled. Still would not start. Long story short, somehow (I think) the stator wires got yanked causing VERY low spark. It would bump start (after 2 trips around my brothers 4 acres) but it was running horribly. Because Im stubborn, I kept at it and smoked the rings. I now have no compression, Im just HOPING that I didn't blow any seals in the bottom end.
Brought the bike home, didn't get to ride the IMI mx track that is 3 minutes from my brothers house. replacing rings, reeds, swapping back in socal jets and will have to look at the stator to see if whatever got pulled is repairable (But fear a new ignition is in order) - Anyone have a good running 500 ignition?