KX Riders

Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Aluminum Frame Conversion (AFC) => Topic started by: German-need-help on October 09, 2013, 08:43:21 AM

Title: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on October 09, 2013, 08:43:21 AM
here we go...

(http://imageshack.us/a/img853/2756/5oj8.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img822/162/6b5f.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img818/9642/5o1p.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img39/9858/zv7.JPG)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img708/605/0pnk.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/34/bsu.JPG)
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: sandblaster on October 09, 2013, 09:08:50 AM
Look great!
Keep those pics coming...
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on October 09, 2013, 09:25:24 AM
thanks  :wink:

(http://imageshack.us/a/img34/3756/cwai.JPG)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img191/3568/3gsk.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img580/368/5bye.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img46/9518/3foz.jpg)

(http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/2809/l2rq.jpg)
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: sandblaster on October 09, 2013, 09:32:18 AM
I like your carb modification, nice job...
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on October 09, 2013, 09:47:53 AM
more frame work.... we will go to the welder at the next days...
the edges of the square tube will be rounded after welding (like OEM Kawasaki)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img163/8514/5ymb.jpg)

(http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/8517/s376.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img33/4484/tz3.JPG)

(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/3135/1h4a.jpg)
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: cmotodad on October 09, 2013, 11:12:44 AM
Are the insides of the sq. tube 90 degree corners? If so, I did that to a CR500 and the rails cracked pretty quickly from it being too thin on the corners. I went to radiused sq .tube and have had good luck.
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: sandblaster on October 09, 2013, 12:07:42 PM
I like your lower engine mounts...

(http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/8517/s376.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img33/4484/tz3.JPG)
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on October 09, 2013, 10:29:55 PM
Are the insides of the sq. tube 90 degree corners? If so, I did that to a CR500 and the rails cracked pretty quickly from it being too thin on the corners. I went to radiused sq .tube and have had good luck.

Yes there are also 90° corners inside.
The OEM Kawasaki Tubes are 2,5mm thick and we have used 3mm thick tubes.
There will be enough material for a small radius ;-)
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on October 09, 2013, 10:56:42 PM
(http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/603/pwbu.jpg)

(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9940/d6j4.jpg)
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on October 10, 2013, 07:13:46 AM
Hey Guys,

which radiators did you use for your build?

We will use the KX 500 radiators...
right side is fine! left side is very very close!
It would be nice if the left radiator will be about 1 cm shorter...
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: motopunk on October 10, 2013, 07:52:54 AM
I like your lower engine mounts...

(http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/8517/s376.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img33/4484/tz3.JPG)


the man of steel is fallen in love to the al-frame...  :-D
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: motopunk on October 10, 2013, 08:02:40 AM
Hey Guys,

which radiators did you use for your build?

We will use the KX 500 radiators...
right side is fine! left side is very very close!
It would be nice if the left radiator will be about 1 cm shorter...

i used also the kx500 radiators, because they fit perfekt to the 93 kx250 -steelframe, that i used.
why dont you try to lift up the left radmounts 1cm on the frame. would be much easier as cutting and welding on the radiators. you must only look for enough clearance, that the frontfork canŽt hit the radiators by turning full to left and right .

where are you in germany?. i live in the northeast in mecklenburg/vorpommern...
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: sandblaster on October 10, 2013, 03:28:54 PM
the man of steel is fallen in love to the al-frame...  :-D

His are so nice and clean and mine are so ugly  :oops:
Oh well.... I'll copy it on my next build.... Once I finish my first build...  :-)
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: motopunk on October 10, 2013, 04:09:07 PM
the man of steel is fallen in love to the al-frame...  :-D

His are so nice and clean and mine are so ugly  :oops:
Oh well.... I'll copy it on my next build.... Once I finish my first build...  :-)

 :-D  so less time and so much projects...  but you have always the chance to do it better with another good used frame that came in your shop...

 i for my own still waiting that a riding buddy will blow the engine of his 2008 kxf250, because he takes no much care to the bike and it makes abnormal noises, but he still ride it.. and so i hope i can get it cheap with blown engine and maybe i take my kx360 engine for the af-build. the time will show it, what happens in the future  :-)
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: sandblaster on October 10, 2013, 04:25:49 PM
and so i hope i can get it cheap with blown engine and maybe i take my kx360 engine for the af-build. the time will show it, what happens in the future  :-)

Oh yeah, that would make a cool bike....
I hate to wish your buddy ill will............ But..... KX360AF .... Nice  8-)
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on October 10, 2013, 05:19:04 PM
Hey Guys,

which radiators did you use for your build?

We will use the KX 500 radiators...
right side is fine! left side is very very close!
It would be nice if the left radiator will be about 1 cm shorter...

i used also the kx500 radiators, because they fit perfekt to the 93 kx250 -steelframe, that i used.
why dont you try to lift up the left radmounts 1cm on the frame. would be much easier as cutting and welding on the radiators. you must only look for enough clearance, that the frontfork canŽt hit the radiators by turning full to left and right .

where are you in germany?. i live in the northeast in mecklenburg/vorpommern...

We are coming from near Frankfurt/Main.

All radiator mounts have to be new! The problem is less space between the Fork and the Y Frame section!
But it will work! If we do not short the radiator it will be fit a little bit diagonal...
The mounts on the picture are only for testing, we are looking for reuse the old mounts to be new welded at the right position!

(http://imageshack.us/a/img22/9757/y1n7.jpg)
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on October 10, 2013, 05:27:04 PM
right side.... fits perfect!

(http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/6617/0a6x.jpg)

left side...

(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/382/aypt.jpg)
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: motopunk on October 10, 2013, 05:33:42 PM
and so i hope i can get it cheap with blown engine and maybe i take my kx360 engine for the af-build. the time will show it, what happens in the future  :-)

Oh yeah, that would make a cool bike....
I hate to wish your buddy ill will............ But..... KX360AF .... Nice  8-)

thats the plan   :-D  iŽve said to him, if he dont look better to his bike he will destroy the engine. he smiled and said: this is a kawasaki!!... so all i have to do is waiting ...  :evil:  weŽll see what happens :lol:
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: motopunk on October 10, 2013, 05:40:45 PM
Hey Guys,

which radiators did you use for your build?

We will use the KX 500 radiators...
right side is fine! left side is very very close!
It would be nice if the left radiator will be about 1 cm shorter...

i used also the kx500 radiators, because they fit perfekt to the 93 kx250 -steelframe, that i used.
why dont you try to lift up the left radmounts 1cm on the frame. would be much easier as cutting and welding on the radiators. you must only look for enough clearance, that the frontfork canŽt hit the radiators by turning full to left and right .

where are you in germany?. i live in the northeast in mecklenburg/vorpommern...

We are coming from near Frankfurt/Main.

All radiator mounts have to be new! The problem is less space between the Fork and the Y Frame section!
But it will work! If we do not short the radiator it will be fit a little bit diagonal...
The mounts on the picture are only for testing, we are looking for reuse the old mounts to be new welded at the right position!

(http://imageshack.us/a/img22/9757/y1n7.jpg)


i think youre y-section is a little bit to high, but the fitment of your radiators looks good at the first view.  dont forget the clearance also to the pipe... which pipe youŽre planning to use??
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on October 11, 2013, 01:26:44 AM
YES next bike we will will make the "Y" a little bit lower!

I bought a new DEP Pipe and DEP silencer for CR 500.
We want to adapt these to the bike. Also i have the old KX pipe to reuse the connection to the engine!
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: motopunk on October 11, 2013, 06:30:27 AM
YES next bike we will will make the "Y" a little bit lower!

I bought a new DEP Pipe and DEP silencer for CR 500.
We want to adapt these to the bike. Also i have the old KX pipe to reuse the connection to the engine!


i use a modified cr500 stock pipe and pro circuit -silencer ...  next update will be also a dep - pipe  :-)

which parts do you still have from the 92 -donor-bike? shoot me a pm and you can write in german...  :wink:
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on October 11, 2013, 07:26:38 AM
@motopunk
check your messages
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on October 12, 2013, 09:53:15 PM
Radiator mounts ready for welding!

(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/7867/tz0k.jpg)

...also we fixed the pipe yesterday! Pics will follow
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: sandblaster on October 13, 2013, 03:24:30 AM
Looking good!
Keep the pics coming  8-)
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on October 13, 2013, 06:32:11 AM
PIPE: Honda CR 500 /DEP
Silencer: HONDA CR 500 /DEP

Exhaust is fixed and point welded...
If we short out the pipe for 15 MM we could reuse the silencer mount.
We want to cut the pipe at the weld in the kickstart area and cut of 15 mm there.
We had also fixed the engine connection from the KX5.
The silencer should be shorted at the end.

sorry for bad english  :roll:

(http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/6149/pmbr.jpg)

(http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/582/es9d.jpg)

(http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/8194/9slc.jpg)

(http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/6214/410b.JPG)

(http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/8760/49el.jpg)
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: motopunk on October 14, 2013, 12:11:15 AM
i love dep-pipes and thats what i planned also for my bike, but i run often out of money because my other 2 bike-projects and the races...  sometimes it needs a little bit more time to get perfekt... :-D
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on October 15, 2013, 08:09:35 AM
pics from the welded pipe...

(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/2063/gh5s.jpg)

(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8341/zdo9.jpg)
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: motopunk on October 15, 2013, 08:28:27 AM
sweeet... cant wait to see the ready bike...  :-D
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: sandblaster on October 15, 2013, 09:48:11 AM
I want to see helmet cam video from a 20 ft high jump  :evil:
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: motopunk on October 15, 2013, 05:22:57 PM
I want to see helmet cam video from a 20 ft high jump  :evil:

you first...  :evil: :evil: :lol:
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: sandblaster on October 16, 2013, 03:13:51 AM
I would shatter  :-P
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: Foxx4Beaver on October 16, 2013, 05:47:13 AM
I would shatter  :-P

you won't have to worry about that shoulder of yours coming apart! :-)
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: motopunk on October 16, 2013, 06:05:44 AM
I would shatter  :-P

or you slide again on your back down the hill...  :lol:
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on October 16, 2013, 07:21:49 AM
I want to see helmet cam video from a 20 ft high jump  :evil:

should be no problem  :-)
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on October 21, 2013, 05:58:58 AM
Coil mount! The sheet will be removed after welding...

(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/9950/n89c.JPG)

Silencer mount

(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/3230/zhgs.jpg)

(http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/3616/wun0.jpg)

Pipe mount prepared for welding

(http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/7020/j4u9.jpg)

(http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/5294/6fa6.jpg)
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: motopunk on October 21, 2013, 06:40:00 AM
nice...  and it looks like a first testride before the winter ...  :-)
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on October 28, 2013, 09:39:42 AM
Exhaust Mount is ready now...

(http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/5342/3l7p.jpg)

Grafix are fixed...

(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/2789/qprr.jpg)

looking forward to welding this week!!!
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: sandblaster on October 28, 2013, 11:11:52 AM
That bike is looking sweet...
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: kxpegger on October 28, 2013, 12:08:02 PM
Question about your pipe? It is very slim looking compared to my Service Honda CR500/KX500 pipe. The pipe's expansion chamber on my SH is so fat it almost hangs below the frame rails on my 2008 chassis. It's an FMF Gnarly. Did you choose your pipe for a particular tuning reason?
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: motopunk on October 28, 2013, 06:10:25 PM
That bike is looking sweet...

yes... i miss the wheels seat and kick start lever for the finished look...  8-)  its time soon for first ride report...  :wink:
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on October 28, 2013, 11:42:45 PM
Question about your pipe? It is very slim looking compared to my Service Honda CR500/KX500 pipe. The pipe's expansion chamber on my SH is so fat it almost hangs below the frame rails on my 2008 chassis. It's an FMF Gnarly. Did you choose your pipe for a particular tuning reason?

No ... its very difficult to order the FMF Gnarly Pipe in Germany, so we took the DEP Pipe for the CR 500 and fixed it!

Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: sandblaster on October 29, 2013, 03:14:20 AM
It will be interesting to see the power you make with that pipe.
Any guess as to how it will effect the torque and HP?
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: Dutch-K5 Fan on October 29, 2013, 06:47:42 AM
Mine Rino exhaust looks very much the same, it's a euro thing I guess :-D
And mine run great :wink:


Dutchie
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on November 05, 2013, 10:30:19 AM
WELDING PICTURES!!!

(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/7295/t4r7.jpg)

(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/1156/6aw5.jpg)

(http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/1133/oxtm.jpg)

(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/3767/ybl9.jpg)

(http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/9270/er3l.jpg)

AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST...

(http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/8043/y7q9.jpg)
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: sandblaster on November 05, 2013, 11:28:21 AM
Nice welding, it sure is looking good.
What are you doing in that last pic?
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: ylwgtr on November 05, 2013, 04:08:53 PM
If I had to guess I'd say facing down the water outlet???
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: sandblaster on November 05, 2013, 04:31:37 PM
That was my guess as well but I wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something...
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on November 05, 2013, 10:27:47 PM
You are right we faced down 7 MM to get more space.
Maybe we won't have to use the "U" coolling hose! We will see later!

Today we will cut off all unnecessary Mounts from the frame and so on...
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on November 08, 2013, 04:35:06 AM
Frame is finished and ready for 2 days of heat treating...

(http://imageshack.com/a/img834/726/3rjs.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img707/1825/6lzq.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img27/8529/cc0h.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img203/2660/8vaz.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img28/8221/duwg.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img826/835/h1wh.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img801/7732/chgu.jpg)

Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: jBernard on November 08, 2013, 10:40:43 AM
looking great so far!
Are you going to make a engine jig to put in place when the frame is being heat treated? i thought about making one so the mounting points wouldnt alter any during the treatment process.
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on November 09, 2013, 03:34:44 AM
looking great so far!
Are you going to make a engine jig to put in place when the frame is being heat treated? i thought about making one so the mounting points wouldnt alter any during the treatment process.


I don't think this will be necessary?
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: 81cr450 on November 09, 2013, 05:00:33 AM
Quote
ready for 2 days of heat treating...

That is the most overlooked part of these AF builds. Could you share any details on the process; temps, time, etc...

Sweet looking build
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: ylwgtr on November 09, 2013, 05:43:28 AM
That's because it's simply not necessary ....I know for a fact that the factory do not do this.I have done about 20 Hondas and haven't had a failure as yet
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: jBernard on November 09, 2013, 07:08:57 AM
i'd be surprised if the factory didnt HT after all the welding they do. when you start looking at the technical numbers of aluminum strength loss in the HAZ of the weld then its pretty obvious.

I think i'm going to do a engine jig on mine just to be safe. even if it only moves slightly that will cause me to have to bore the engine mount holes out bigger and then it will be sloppy. not worth it.
i was thinking on just making basic steel bar with tapped holes on either side the width of the engine in each mount area. then bracing them all together with some .250" steel bar.
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: ylwgtr on November 09, 2013, 11:36:16 AM
I met a guy when i was living in japan that worked in honda and he told me they didnt heat treat them...this was early 2000's...if its now changed i dont know
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: 81cr450 on November 09, 2013, 01:04:13 PM
Quote
then bracing them all together with some .250" steel bar.

That actually builds in stress points as AL & steel flex at different rates. I like the no weld mount/ frame mod idea. Im working it on a honda using thin .061 4130 plate & using the skid plate as carrier , hoping that I havent built in to much of a stress point. The process of anealing when AL is heated is some scary crap to bet your life on
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: jBernard on November 09, 2013, 03:03:13 PM
Quote
then bracing them all together with some .250" steel bar.

That actually builds in stress points as AL & steel flex at different rates. I like the no weld mount/ frame mod idea. Im working it on a honda using thin .061 4130 plate & using the skid plate as carrier , hoping that I havent built in to much of a stress point. The process of anealing when AL is heated is some scary crap to bet your life on

i kind of see what you mean about the different rates of expansion. but shouldnt the steel move less than aluminum due to the way higher melting point. i was thinking that brace would just hold the cradle in its original positioning during HT and not let it warp or anything.

Christini (the guys that do the AWD) bikes, i found who they use for their heat treating. and i was asking how under annealing they dont warp and distort. he said that a lot of it is how its mounted during the treatment process to minimize any distortion. he's the one that recommended bracing it with a removable brace before treating. he also said you could tack weld some alum braces (just a few rods at random spots) and then just grind off after treating.

ive never heard a clear answer as well on what the factory does. I would be surprised if they didn't HT. it seems like the frames are engineered for aluminum to be certain thickness at certain points for flex and rigidity. well, take off 30% of the strength at those areas now due to being heated when welded. seems like they are more likely speced using 100% strength material throughout. and all annealing does is get it back to that point after its been altered.
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: 81cr450 on November 09, 2013, 04:52:36 PM
Sorry I'm an idiot & read it wrong. I understood bolt in cradle / steel plate reinforcement . Dur
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on December 03, 2013, 12:43:04 AM
That's because it's simply not necessary ....I know for a fact that the factory do not do this.I have done about 20 Hondas and haven't had a failure as yet


Bike is finished! without heat treating!!!
In Germany all tracks are closed yet, because the winters are cold and full of snow.
There will be enough time for the aluminum to stress out alone, without a heat treating furnace.
In 3 month (february/march) we will check up the strongness of the frame of jumping some big jumps.  :roll:

The 2 honda CR 500 AF builds my kollege has done before, also never had seen a heat treat furnace and were finished also before the winter :-)






Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: German-need-help on December 03, 2013, 01:02:31 AM
(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad303/mruppert1/DSC02995_zpsd4645f9c.jpg)

(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad303/mruppert1/20131119_213131_zpsed11a959.jpg)

(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad303/mruppert1/20131119_212835_zpscece8536.jpg)

(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad303/mruppert1/20131119_213451_zps3c26fd7a.jpg)

(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad303/mruppert1/20131122_191142_zps692910a9.jpg)
Title: Re: 1992 KX 500 to KX 250 F 2011 Conversion
Post by: sandblaster on January 22, 2015, 01:26:36 PM
Nice!