KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Original => Topic started by: hughes on December 19, 2004, 04:25:41 PM
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My 87 KX500 has a plated cylinder. I removed the cylinder for new top end rebuild and noticed there is zero cross-hatch present. The engine has always ran strong and is a bear to kick over(I never checked the compression with a gauge). Is cross-hatch suppost to be present or is there low micron pores that retain the oil(texture of the plating) :?: Thanks
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hughes,
A pic will tell us more if you can post one.
But usually, if it?s used/worn cylinder no cross-hatch will be remaind.
//doordie
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NO! YOU SHOULD NOT SEE CROSS-HATCH IN CYCLINDER,YOU DONT WANT TO SEE IT ON YOUR CHROME BUMPER OR YOUR CHROME CYCLINDER.MOST PEOPLE THINK YOU SHOULD GO HONE CRAZY EVERY TIME YOU HAVE IT APART, WRONG YOU WANT TO HONE AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE TO SOFTEN ANY ROUGH SPOTS FOR NEW RINGS.mY 2004 KX500 HAD NO VISIBLE CROSS HATCH AFTER 4 HRS. i KNOW CAUSE I BORE BLOCKS
ERIC-04KX500 GREATENGINES.COM
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So I guess the small micron pores in the plating retain the oil :!: . The plateing looks good no flaking of scroing around any of the port openings. Maybe best thing is to measure bore and then install new top end. Like I said before this thing runs like a rapped ape :!: The only reason for the new top end at this point is so I know what I have. I am slowly restoring this thing. I am use to looking at marine(Outboards) engine with cast iron sleeves which require cross-hatch :waving: .Thanks
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AHHHHHHHHHH help me out here but I just read to hone the cylinder. You are not suppose to hone plated cylinders. You will hone the plateing off. Call me crazy but I think I am correct here.
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Rowdy-Yates,
Everything I have read on the net says that their are small micron pores in the plating that retain the oil. I agree with 04kx500 about light honing just for repairing cylinder. But that's just my opinion. Thanks
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I have heard both arguments for why you should hone and not hone. EG honed my cylinder after he bored it and if does it I would say it's best. In my opinion honing must be done to seat the rings.
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When you had your's bored is it still a plated cylinder or a sleeve :?:
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ok, i was unclear in my statement. Should you hone a plated cylinder? NO! UNLESS you have some type of scoring on wall and you cant afford a replate at that time.To go by the book,any scoring or flaking ,yes ANY really constiutes a replate.This is a " make do " situation for some one who hopes to get a little more life on that cylinder.Honing the plating is doing DAMAGE to the rings and cylinder both ,but will buy you some time.
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BE VERY CAREFUL HONING A PLATED CYLINDER! I would only (not really but what the hell) hone if there are light scratches, burnt oil, or minor aluminum scuffs. If the scratches, major aluminum scuffs or chipping exists, replate! Anyway! If you chose to hone, use a ball hone only. I've been told and read you should only do it with a diameter that is somewhere around 10% smaller than the cylinder bore size. NEVER USE A THREE STONE honer, it will mess the port edges up.
Yes! The cross hatch is good for a new cylinder (if you keep your current piston, do not worry as the cross hatch is good for getting oil to the piston breaking in!)! If you have factory plating, replate it, cause on a '87 it will more than likely chip when honed. Just remember to coat the cylinder in oil. Use a ball hone 240-360 grit alumnum oxyde material, that will ensure you do not take any plating off, if not loose.
I also had my Cylinder bored by Gorr and it was replated, I'm sure Kawdude's was the same.
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doordie and others.I posted some pictures in my gallery of my cylinder need to know if I could get some more use out of it. Just laid down over $500.00 in parts this week and just don't know if I could spend anymore. Tell me what you think. a.huhges 87 kx500 gallery first page. Bore size 86.02-86.35 10% smaller for a ball hone would be 77.67 is my math right :?: Thanks
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I was curious about this and checked out the official service manual; "..the cylinder must be replaced with a new one since the ELECTROFUSION cylinder cannot be bored or honed" This quote is taken from the section of how to inspect the cylinder wear. It is however the only reference I find to honing in the manual.
I think that's a clear - but not entirly correct - statement since you can replate the cylinder.
//John
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John, What manual? Cylmer or Kasawaski. They might be talking about honing a cylinder to square it up. I think when they replate they go in with a cutting hone to square the bore up with the center line. But i agree with you about clear and unclear statment.
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Hughes,
That would be the Kawasaki Heavy Industries LTD Motorcycle Service Maual from 1988 - part no. 99924-1101-01
It might be a tad old and outdated. Really, 1988, my kids are yonger than this book!
//John
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At least the language is modern-ish "Thau shall lubricatum thier bearings.." etc. :wink:
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hughes,
I look into your pic?s of cylinder and YOU have to ask yourself some
questions.
1.Will I use this bike alot?
2.How much money for a replate?
3.How long time have you run with this piston already?
You can use this cylinder IF it?s in service limit,but don?t change piston,
only rings.Then save for a proper service with a portjob,replate and a new
piston.Ports are very bad matched stock as you see and electrofusion is
s**t.... :lol:
You will loose some compression with all scratches,but a new set of rings will seal good anyway `cause no
scratches at end of stroke.
Measure at top of cylinder were rings turn for down stroke of piston. :wink:
Inspect piston for damage!
This is just my opinion,I`m not respons..... :wink:
//doordie
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hughes,
I look into your pic?s of cylinder and YOU have to ask yourself some
questions.
1.Will I use this bike alot?
2.How much money for a replate?
3.How long time have you run with this piston already?
You can use this cylinder IF it?s in service limit,but don?t change piston,
only rings.Then save for a proper service with a portjob,replate and a new
piston.Ports are very bad matched stock as you see and electrofusion is
s**t.... :lol:
You will loose some compression with all scratches,but a new set of rings will seal good anyway `cause no
scratches at end of stroke.
Measure at top of cylinder were rings turn for down stroke of piston. :wink:
Inspect piston for damage!
This is just my opinion,I`m not respons..... :wink:
//doordie
Questions:
1) Yes I will use this bike alot
2) I need to check with some companies for prices.
3) I have used this piston/bike for about 30 hours. Knowin g the condition of the bike I would say that the top end in this bike was original.
My questions to you.
1) Why reuse the piston and just replace the ring :?: My piston is in pretty bad shape. Look in work in progress album for piston pictures.
2) I have a new top end kit already. Do you think I should use it :?:
I think this is what I may try. I have ordered a 360 grit ball hone. I am going to try some light honing to clean up the bore(Scratches) and measure for service limit. If plating starts to flake off then off it's goes to replate company.
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hughes,
in one of your pics in the gallery, you were asking if your piston was near seizure, you notice, gauging by those marks and discoloration... that is from your old piston worn in it's circumference and now is oscillating/ teetering inside the bore during the stroke. notice the scored areas are 180 degrees from each other fore/aft and hi/ low, and that they are inline with the roll/ radially with the rod bearing. the piston in your pic is in great shape considering what it's been thru, how old it is. you said you have it all apart now and already have the complete top-end kit.? great, use it..
oh, and the cross-hatch that you mentioned not being present in the bore.?? the cross hatch micro lines are only there for the initial setting of the rings with oiling and only last a few mintues after the first crank up.......
..jdv
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Hughes,
Oki, you have answered your own questions and it sounds to me IF you would use your bike alot
the answer is replate. 8)
My opinion were,Why put in a new piston in a worn cylinder with nearly no limits left?
But if you wants a LITTLE more ours out of it,reuse piston and only change ring. :wink:
Worst case, a sieze and old piston goodbye.
After that can you use your new piston and replate cylinder:wink:
(make sure they trim/filing all ports before replating,save many ours on piston)
//doordie
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Thanks guy's for the info and help. I am going to get some prices for plating. I want to ride this bike alot. I have put to much time and money into it's reserruction.
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Hughes, a few people have had good experiences with Eric Gorr and his replating (he uses US Chrome), you could have him to some porting while it is in his hands too. Who knows, maybe even a big bore. :-D
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Thanks I was am going to send him an e-mail right now. What will a port job do for engine if I keep the standard bore size :?:
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Well, you can choose where you like the power, low-mid range hit, or a mid-topend hit, or what you call Mo-Better which he just works the ports to give power everywhere, like a spread out type deal. I had mine ported for mid-top hit, but that was cause he was doing a big-bore which usally tends to rob the top-end power. It is better to call him than to e-mail, he has never returned an e-mail from me. You could also post on dirtrider.net under the Eric-Gorr forum.
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Thanks, I was just on his site and looked up the porting for diff. powerbands. Looks like I will call him. Porting looks to be $200.00. It would be nice to have some port work done to smooth my power. This 87 500 has a tubo powerband. I think I will need to just get re-plated bore.
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My honing turned out good. The plating did not flake at any of the port openings. I'm going to install the new top end and replate later.
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I checked this up and it's around ?110 to get some welding (for any deep cuts) and plating done on a KX5 cylinder here in the UK. The plating only is ?85. I think that's good value considering the price of a new piston is more...
//John