Author Topic: Project "I was only gonna clean the air filter!"  (Read 130218 times)

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Motorrad

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Re: Project "I was only gonna clean the air filter!"
« Reply #195 on: June 03, 2012, 04:55:08 PM »
Saturday the 9th it is.......What time?   :-D

SO EXCITED!!


Who took that video of you?

Better bring a note pad to take notes

Motorrad

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Re: Project "I was only gonna clean the air filter!"
« Reply #196 on: June 03, 2012, 06:20:09 PM »
Just noticed you said Sunday......    Sunday the 10th works good also

hell any day between now and the 16th...   after that.. you have to pick it up from 81cr450, as I drop it off at his house on the way to canada...
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 07:29:40 PM by Motorrad »

Motorrad

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Re: Project "I was only gonna clean the air filter!"
« Reply #197 on: June 04, 2012, 05:39:25 PM »
some easy reading...

This is written by a guy name Howard Richards from R.E.D.. Best describes my train of thought... (except I keep better records of compression, leakdown (both pressure and vaccume)

"The purpose of the "break-in" procedure is to GRADUALLY wear down the "high spots" on components such as rings, piston skirts, cylinder walls, bearings and races, etc. after a motor is fitted with new items. ALL machined parts are imperfect to a certain degree and therefore have "high" and "low" areas which must be mated to those that they roll or rub against to achieve a good running fit. Problems can arise however in the process because the mere act of "rubbing down" the high spots creates abnormally high friction. Friction creates heat. Heat creates expansion. Expansion reduces running clearances and increases friction. More friction, more heat, more expansion... Pretty soon you can see that you are rubbing off MORE than high spots on each part resulting in premature part wear (LOW spots). This is what happens when a motor is broken in too aggressively. You end up with a motor that, at the very least, has abnormally LARGE running clearances throughout. Thus you now have an unnecessarily shortened remaining life for your "new" motor accompanied by reduced performance. If the motor is really abused during early "new life" running, the tight initial clearances may get closed up completely due to heat and expansion and the rotating or reciprocating parts will SEIZE. So how to control this "running in and mating" of moving parts becomes the question...

First, before you even start the motor for the first time, do a "cranking pressure" compression test with a good quality, screw-into-the-spark-plug-hole type compression gage. Ignition off, fuel off, throttle held WIDE OPEN. Kick, pull-rope or cycle the electric starter until the gage reaches its' highest reading and stays there. Note the reading and record it. Don't expect a real high number because the rings and cylinder are not mated yet, but you should see at least 100 psi, sometimes much higher depending on the planned compression ratio, port timing (or camshaft profile if it's a four stroke), etc.. Generally speaking, with fuel, air, spark at approximately the correct time, 100 psi gage pressure and exhaust, the motor will run.

I prefer to break-in motors on a petroleum based oil and then switch to a synthetic afterwards (if it's to be done at all). There's lots of opinions on this...... for better or worse, that's mine. My feelings are that "too slippery" an oil will slow down the break-in process too much and I've even seen 600X cross hatched cylinders, chrome and Nikasil bores where the rings never seated and we attributed it to synthetic oils during break-in. If it's a two stroke, you can add a bit of extra pre-mix oil to the fuel, set the oil pump at a slightly higher than normal base setting, or both for the first tank of fuel, but I'd use a petroleum based oil.

OK. Start the motor and allow it to run at approximately 1500 rpm or so. Shut the choke off absolutely ASAP! The excess fuel that the choke supplies can wash the oil film off the cylinder walls (oil injection) and overheat the ring faces quickly, especially in a four stroke. ALWAYS shut the choke off ASAP on ANY motor for this same reason. NEVER let a motor run for long periods with the choke on to warm it up. NEVER ride, drive, fly or place under load any motor driven device with the choke on. It is a quick route to early death for the rings.

Check immediately for oil and compression leaks around the various gasket sealing locations. ANY LEAKS should be fixed immediately, especially head, base or exhaust gasket areas. If there are none, hold your hand against the cylinder and GENTLY vary the engine speed in neutral between approximately 1500 and 2500 rpm. DO NOT OVER REV! There is no "load" on the engine and over revving is very tough on crankshaft, bearings, etc.! When the engine is warm enough to be uncomfortable on your hand, shut it off. Again check for any leaks. Now let the motor cool down to COLD. THEN, carefully re-torque the head(s) at this time.

Now you're ready for your first ride/drive/flight/whatever. Start the motor and warm-up gently exactly as before. When the motor is uncomfortably warm on your hand, stab her in gear and gently accelerate through each gear using about 1/3 to 1/2 throttle as a shift point. DO NOT BOG or LUG the motor. DO NOT "cruise" at a steady rpm. Vary the engine speed up and down at all times. DO NOT OVER REV either! When you reach top gear immediately slow down and ride back to your origin doing the same thing. Limit your initial ride time to 5 to 10 minutes maximum, all the while touching the cylinder frequently with your hand to sense drastic overheating. ANY signs of excessive heating or abnormal engine noises require immediate SHUT DOWN and investigation/cure of the culprit. If in doubt, DO NOT ride/drive/fly back to the garage and then shut it off... TOW it back! When you're done with the initial ride, let it cool down to COLD again.

Continue this procedure gradually extending the running time to 10 minutes, then 15 minutes, etc.. You can also gradually get a bit more agressive with throttle application (slightly bigger "handfuls/footfuls" of throttle). Speed up, slow down, constantly varying throttle position and going up and down through the gears. Steady cruising at one engine speed or lugging the motor below its' powerband in a higher gear can cause overheating during break-in... AVOID BOTH! Don't worry so much about too high an rpm as VARYING the rpm. Bursts of throttle allow heating and mild expansion which in turn shaves off those high spots while deceleration allows slight cooling and contraction. Stay away from long hills, carrying a passenger or heavy loads during break-in.

After about an hour total riding/driving/flying time has accumulated, recheck cranking compression. As the rings seat, you will see the readings come up and you will also notice improvements in power delivery. Break-in is essentially complete when the readings peak and no longer get higher as more riding time accumulates. For a two stroke, this is typically one to three hours break-in time.

A four stroke has a superior oiling system and therefore breaks in more slowly. Two to five hundred miles is frequently required to completely break-in a four stroke. For a closely toleranced street four stroke it often takes 1000 to 1500 miles or even more! I dump the oil and filter in a four stroke after the first 75 miles, again at 200 miles, 500 miles, 1000 miles and each 1500 miles thereafter on a street engine. Off road and competition four strokes get fresh oil and filter every one hundred to four hundred miles with me, depending on how hard their running life is after break-in. The initial oil and filter change is done into a clean, light colored, plastic shallow pan so I can see any metal particles that drain out with it. Straining the oil through a clean, white paint filter is excellent practice. You can then drag a magnet through the oil to collect the particles that are ferrous for closer inspection of potential problems. Minor break-in particulate or "dust" is normal. I also cut open the oil filter and lay it out on clean white paper towel to see what it has trapped and again look for any signs of trouble. Yes, it's a lot of fiddling and checking but I find it infinitly preferable to engine catastrophies (and a lot less expensive!).

Once it is broken-in, you can optimize ignition timing and jetting, preferably on a dyno. During break-in keep the fuel/air SLIGHTLY rich and the ignition timing essentially stock, NOT advanced.

Even after break-in is done, always warm up the engine thoroughly before riding/driving/flying per the above procedure to avoid cold engine excessive wear or even possible "cold seizure" on liquid cooled motors (most frequently occurs in marine or snowmobile applications).

Motorrad

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Re: Project "I was only gonna clean the air filter!"
« Reply #198 on: June 04, 2012, 05:40:53 PM »
Also forgot to add... I like to do breaking proceedures with the Head mount (head to frame)  loose...   so the head can move to where it wants to be...

Motorrad

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Re: Project "I was only gonna clean the air filter!"
« Reply #199 on: June 05, 2012, 06:25:16 AM »
Yes there will be a test on this..    Multiple choice...

Offline Brute

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Re: Project "I was only gonna clean the air filter!"
« Reply #200 on: June 05, 2012, 06:35:52 AM »
That is one pretty engine! Always a thrill to see a new completed engine waiting for someone to bring it to life the first time. Very nice!
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Offline USMC 500

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Re: Project "I was only gonna clean the air filter!"
« Reply #201 on: June 07, 2012, 07:53:11 AM »
The Clock is ticking!!!  In less than 48 hours I'll have my motor in my grubby mitts!! :evil:

Tick, Tock, Tick, Tock, Tick, Tock........

I once heard my buddy Bill ask Danny Hamel after a race....
"How can someone who looks like a high school band tuba player go so d**n fast on a bike?!"

Offline Polar-Bus

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Re: Project "I was only gonna clean the air filter!"
« Reply #202 on: June 07, 2012, 08:51:01 AM »
some easy reading...

This is written by a guy name Howard Richards from R.E.D.. Best describes my train of thought... (except I keep better records of compression, leakdown (both pressure and vaccume)

"The purpose of the "break-in" procedure is to GRADUALLY wear down the "high spots" on components such as rings, piston skirts, cylinder walls, bearings and races, etc. after a motor is fitted with new items. ALL machined parts are imperfect to a certain degree and therefore have "high" and "low" areas which must be mated to those that they roll or rub against to achieve a good running fit. Problems can arise however in the process because the mere act of "rubbing down" the high spots creates abnormally high friction. Friction creates heat. Heat creates expansion. Expansion reduces running clearances and increases friction. More friction, more heat, more expansion... Pretty soon you can see that you are rubbing off MORE than high spots on each part resulting in premature part wear (LOW spots). This is what happens when a motor is broken in too aggressively. You end up with a motor that, at the very least, has abnormally LARGE running clearances throughout. Thus you now have an unnecessarily shortened remaining life for your "new" motor accompanied by reduced performance. If the motor is really abused during early "new life" running, the tight initial clearances may get closed up completely due to heat and expansion and the rotating or reciprocating parts will SEIZE. So how to control this "running in and mating" of moving parts becomes the question...

First, before you even start the motor for the first time, do a "cranking pressure" compression test with a good quality, screw-into-the-spark-plug-hole type compression gage. Ignition off, fuel off, throttle held WIDE OPEN. Kick, pull-rope or cycle the electric starter until the gage reaches its' highest reading and stays there. Note the reading and record it. Don't expect a real high number because the rings and cylinder are not mated yet, but you should see at least 100 psi, sometimes much higher depending on the planned compression ratio, port timing (or camshaft profile if it's a four stroke), etc.. Generally speaking, with fuel, air, spark at approximately the correct time, 100 psi gage pressure and exhaust, the motor will run.

I prefer to break-in motors on a petroleum based oil and then switch to a synthetic afterwards (if it's to be done at all). There's lots of opinions on this...... for better or worse, that's mine. My feelings are that "too slippery" an oil will slow down the break-in process too much and I've even seen 600X cross hatched cylinders, chrome and Nikasil bores where the rings never seated and we attributed it to synthetic oils during break-in. If it's a two stroke, you can add a bit of extra pre-mix oil to the fuel, set the oil pump at a slightly higher than normal base setting, or both for the first tank of fuel, but I'd use a petroleum based oil.

OK. Start the motor and allow it to run at approximately 1500 rpm or so. Shut the choke off absolutely ASAP! The excess fuel that the choke supplies can wash the oil film off the cylinder walls (oil injection) and overheat the ring faces quickly, especially in a four stroke. ALWAYS shut the choke off ASAP on ANY motor for this same reason. NEVER let a motor run for long periods with the choke on to warm it up. NEVER ride, drive, fly or place under load any motor driven device with the choke on. It is a quick route to early death for the rings.

Check immediately for oil and compression leaks around the various gasket sealing locations. ANY LEAKS should be fixed immediately, especially head, base or exhaust gasket areas. If there are none, hold your hand against the cylinder and GENTLY vary the engine speed in neutral between approximately 1500 and 2500 rpm. DO NOT OVER REV! There is no "load" on the engine and over revving is very tough on crankshaft, bearings, etc.! When the engine is warm enough to be uncomfortable on your hand, shut it off. Again check for any leaks. Now let the motor cool down to COLD. THEN, carefully re-torque the head(s) at this time.

Now you're ready for your first ride/drive/flight/whatever. Start the motor and warm-up gently exactly as before. When the motor is uncomfortably warm on your hand, stab her in gear and gently accelerate through each gear using about 1/3 to 1/2 throttle as a shift point. DO NOT BOG or LUG the motor. DO NOT "cruise" at a steady rpm. Vary the engine speed up and down at all times. DO NOT OVER REV either! When you reach top gear immediately slow down and ride back to your origin doing the same thing. Limit your initial ride time to 5 to 10 minutes maximum, all the while touching the cylinder frequently with your hand to sense drastic overheating. ANY signs of excessive heating or abnormal engine noises require immediate SHUT DOWN and investigation/cure of the culprit. If in doubt, DO NOT ride/drive/fly back to the garage and then shut it off... TOW it back! When you're done with the initial ride, let it cool down to COLD again.

Continue this procedure gradually extending the running time to 10 minutes, then 15 minutes, etc.. You can also gradually get a bit more agressive with throttle application (slightly bigger "handfuls/footfuls" of throttle). Speed up, slow down, constantly varying throttle position and going up and down through the gears. Steady cruising at one engine speed or lugging the motor below its' powerband in a higher gear can cause overheating during break-in... AVOID BOTH! Don't worry so much about too high an rpm as VARYING the rpm. Bursts of throttle allow heating and mild expansion which in turn shaves off those high spots while deceleration allows slight cooling and contraction. Stay away from long hills, carrying a passenger or heavy loads during break-in.

After about an hour total riding/driving/flying time has accumulated, recheck cranking compression. As the rings seat, you will see the readings come up and you will also notice improvements in power delivery. Break-in is essentially complete when the readings peak and no longer get higher as more riding time accumulates. For a two stroke, this is typically one to three hours break-in time.

A four stroke has a superior oiling system and therefore breaks in more slowly. Two to five hundred miles is frequently required to completely break-in a four stroke. For a closely toleranced street four stroke it often takes 1000 to 1500 miles or even more! I dump the oil and filter in a four stroke after the first 75 miles, again at 200 miles, 500 miles, 1000 miles and each 1500 miles thereafter on a street engine. Off road and competition four strokes get fresh oil and filter every one hundred to four hundred miles with me, depending on how hard their running life is after break-in. The initial oil and filter change is done into a clean, light colored, plastic shallow pan so I can see any metal particles that drain out with it. Straining the oil through a clean, white paint filter is excellent practice. You can then drag a magnet through the oil to collect the particles that are ferrous for closer inspection of potential problems. Minor break-in particulate or "dust" is normal. I also cut open the oil filter and lay it out on clean white paper towel to see what it has trapped and again look for any signs of trouble. Yes, it's a lot of fiddling and checking but I find it infinitly preferable to engine catastrophies (and a lot less expensive!).

Once it is broken-in, you can optimize ignition timing and jetting, preferably on a dyno. During break-in keep the fuel/air SLIGHTLY rich and the ignition timing essentially stock, NOT advanced.

Even after break-in is done, always warm up the engine thoroughly before riding/driving/flying per the above procedure to avoid cold engine excessive wear or even possible "cold seizure" on liquid cooled motors (most frequently occurs in marine or snowmobile applications).

So I take it your not a fan of the hotly debated "redline rpm break-in" procedure? I've read some wildly opposed opinions on how to break in a fresh 2 stroke. I personally like the initial "heat cycles" and then varied throttle with an occasional light and quick WOT run.  Always had excellent crank longevity on my 2 strokes with a proper break-in.
01' KX500
'84 GPz1100
'87 GSX-R  750
'06 HD Fatboy
'73 Kawi H1
'03 CRG KX500 Shifter kart

Offline Foxx4Beaver

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Re: Project "I was only gonna clean the air filter!"
« Reply #203 on: June 07, 2012, 09:05:34 AM »
So I take it your not a fan of the hotly debated "redline rpm break-in" procedure? I've read some wildly opposed opinions on how to break in a fresh 2 stroke. I personally like the initial "heat cycles" and then varied throttle with an occasional light and quick WOT run.  Always had excellent crank longevity on my 2 strokes with a proper break-in.
[/quote]


I agree,heat cycles,then a nice easy ride through some open fire roads,with short bursts of WOT.

JoJo Kellers' favorite saying was,and still is..."break it in the way you're gonna ride it"....and he always did just that.His mechanics would get soooo pissed when he'd fire up a completely rebuilt 250 or 500,and ring it out to death doing 45 minute practice motos.....then pull up to the truck and say..."throw a fresh top-end in it"!!!
Excuse me, ma'am...but you've got extremely nice legs!!!...what time do they open???                                                                                                               https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8tCgN3aryQ

Offline Polar-Bus

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Re: Project "I was only gonna clean the air filter!"
« Reply #204 on: June 07, 2012, 09:42:51 AM »



I agree,heat cycles,then a nice easy ride through some open fire roads,with short bursts of WOT.

JoJo Kellers' favorite saying was,and still is..."break it in the way you're gonna ride it"....and he always did just that.His mechanics would get soooo pissed when he'd fire up a completely rebuilt 250 or 500,and ring it out to death doing 45 minute practice motos.....then pull up to the truck and say..."throw a fresh top-end in it"!!!

Never realized you are so close !, back in the 80's I lived in northern MA . I was an avid NESC racer/spectator, and you jogged many a memory of "big man" JoJo K., also  Tim M., Pat B and of course Dowdy LOVED watching those "A" guys scrap in up at the 'Wick, Pepperel, and Middelboro ! Dam I miss the good ol days when I was young, strong and dumb... :D
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'84 GPz1100
'87 GSX-R  750
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'73 Kawi H1
'03 CRG KX500 Shifter kart

Offline Foxx4Beaver

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Re: Project "I was only gonna clean the air filter!"
« Reply #205 on: June 07, 2012, 09:53:33 AM »



I agree,heat cycles,then a nice easy ride through some open fire roads,with short bursts of WOT.

JoJo Kellers' favorite saying was,and still is..."break it in the way you're gonna ride it"....and he always did just that.His mechanics would get soooo pissed when he'd fire up a completely rebuilt 250 or 500,and ring it out to death doing 45 minute practice motos.....then pull up to the truck and say..."throw a fresh top-end in it"!!!

Never realized you are so close !, back in the 80's I lived in northern MA . I was an avid NESC racer/spectator, and you jogged many a memory of "big man" JoJo K., also  Tim M., Pat B and of course Dowdy LOVED watching those "A" guys scrap in up at the 'Wick, Pepperel, and Middelboro ! Dam I miss the good ol days when I was young, strong and dumb... :D



Yup,born and raised here in Plymouth,MA....I grew up 5 miles away from JoJo.Not sure who Tim M is,but I know Pat Barton,Jack Camelio,Keith Johnson,Bill Dill,Carl Decotis...who's son Jimmy is now part of the Factory Connection/Geico team.....that's where JoJo was working for a short time,helping train Jimmy in New Hampshire.But,Jimmy ended up snappin BOTH ankles in Cali,two weeks before Anaheim,and left JoJo without a job.
Excuse me, ma'am...but you've got extremely nice legs!!!...what time do they open???                                                                                                               https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8tCgN3aryQ

Offline USMC 500

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Re: Project "I was only gonna clean the air filter!"
« Reply #206 on: June 08, 2012, 08:58:50 AM »
In about 48 hours I should have the motor in the bike and I should be firing her up after 3 long years!!!  This is more exciting than kicking butt on excitebike!!

I once heard my buddy Bill ask Danny Hamel after a race....
"How can someone who looks like a high school band tuba player go so d**n fast on a bike?!"

Motorrad

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Re: Project "I was only gonna clean the air filter!"
« Reply #207 on: June 08, 2012, 09:46:07 AM »
In about 48 hours I should have the motor in the bike and I should be firing her up after 3 long years!!!  This is more exciting than kicking butt on excitebike!!


so your saying... I should hurry up, and take the motor out of my bike, and clean it up, so it doesnt look like I have been using your motor to race with for the past 5 months?

Offline USMC 500

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Re: Project "I was only gonna clean the air filter!"
« Reply #208 on: June 08, 2012, 11:39:40 AM »
In about 48 hours I should have the motor in the bike and I should be firing her up after 3 long years!!!  This is more exciting than kicking butt on excitebike!!


so your saying... I should hurry up, and take the motor out of my bike, and clean it up, so it doesnt look like I have been using your motor to race with for the past 5 months?

No its cool.....you can keep it.....I'll trade ya for your Jeff Ward motor. :-D
I once heard my buddy Bill ask Danny Hamel after a race....
"How can someone who looks like a high school band tuba player go so d**n fast on a bike?!"

Offline Foxx4Beaver

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Re: Project "I was only gonna clean the air filter!"
« Reply #209 on: June 08, 2012, 11:52:17 AM »
In about 48 hours I should have the motor in the bike and I should be firing her up after 3 long years!!!  This is more exciting than kicking butt on excitebike!!




Holy memories...Excitebike!!....I have'nt heard of that in years.
Excuse me, ma'am...but you've got extremely nice legs!!!...what time do they open???                                                                                                               https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8tCgN3aryQ