Author Topic: Jetting!!! Again and again and again!  (Read 283182 times)

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Offline Paul

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Re: Jetting!!! Again and again and again!
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2004, 04:50:13 AM »
How is your clutch side crankseal? If that is leaking it would explain your super lean pilot jet.

Offline gowen

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Re: Jetting!!! Again and again and again!
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2004, 05:10:53 AM »
Hi Paul, I just had it rebuilt, top and bottom last year about this time. I've bearly ridden it maybe about 10 times since then, just starting to put use on it. I'd hope it is not leaking. How can I pressure test the crank. I did just pull the top-end down and inspect everything, looks good, some scaring on the wall of the cylinder, but I'm assuming that came from running some WOT drags with a 160 main.  :roll:

What is teh best way to test? I have not noticed any grey in the oil since I changed the water pump seal nor have I seen any loss of oil.

Also, I mix 32:1. I know I will get hounded for running to rich, but I doubt that is the cause for no idle.

I'm quite the curious what the issue is. Should I change carbs? I have another one. But, I doubt it will help.

Offline Paul

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Re: Jetting!!! Again and again and again!
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2004, 05:34:48 AM »
32:1 shouldn't keep it from idling, I run mine @ 40:1 - not too much difference. That bike is loosing air down low for some reason, what is your float level at?

Offline gowen

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Re: Jetting!!! Again and again and again!
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2004, 07:07:45 AM »
Quote from: Paul
32:1 shouldn't keep it from idling, I run mine @ 40:1 - not too much difference. That bike is loosing air down low for some reason, what is your float level at?


That is something I thought about too. I measured it with a ruler.  :oops:
and it is coming to about 22mm-24mm (couldnt' get it to seat quite right because of the ruler, kinda sucks compared to the float height thingy they talk about.  :x ) Stock was like 16-18mm. But this is what I'm confused about... Adjusting the float from 22mm to 16mm would richen it? Because that would lift the float making it richer or am I wrong and it is the opposite?

Thanks Paul and Kawdude for your help!! I think I will become a jetting expert after this is all said and done.  :wink: Then can be of some help on this board.  :D

Offline Paul

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Re: Jetting!!! Again and again and again!
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2004, 07:23:53 AM »
Well if the float isn't shutting off the fuel it'll dribble out the tube and in some cases get suck up into the pilot and not idle ;)

Offline gowen

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Re: Jetting!!! Again and again and again!
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2004, 07:35:39 AM »
Gotcha, I will take a look at that this evening after work.. (6pm  :roll: ) and I will change the float and needle valve thingy out. Maybe we can find a end to this mess...  :!:

Sharc

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Re: Jetting!!! Again and again and again!
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2004, 07:57:28 AM »
Amen....and we can all go riding again.... :wink:

Make sure your jetting is close to stock, especially the pilot, cuz if the float seal was leaking and you fix it, your crazy jetting might grenade your motor....

kawdude

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Re: Jetting!!! Again and again and again!
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2004, 02:43:51 PM »
Quote

Thanks Paul and Kawdude for your help!!


Gowen,  thanks for the acknowledgement.  I'm just putting out thoughts because I need to go thru the same grueling mess (with idle pops) but now we have a lot of information regarding jetting.  Paul (and many others) are the experts.  I'm a novice.  Now did the clip stay in the 3rd notch or the 2nd?  

Regarding the floats...you are measuring from the bowl seat to the bottom (top) of the float.  If so that's really low.  I think the backasswards way to do it is to just make sure its parallel to the bowl seat.  Keep posting your results.  It's appreciated!

I would be very pissed if the main seal was leaking.  If you do check and it is leaking raise hell with Gorr because I think he outsources the engine rebuilding part.  No matter what you still own a great bike and I've really enjoyed following and contributing to this.  Can I hire you out to jet my bike??? :o

On a side note, years ago I had a 75 GT80 that would foul plug daily and I thought it was normal to drip black oil out the pipe.  Now I know why and I can fix it!!!  If I can only find the bike. :shock:

Offline gowen

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Re: Jetting!!! Again and again and again!
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2004, 03:25:37 PM »
Well, I just got back from the garage... I have two carburators. So, I took the float from the other carb and adjusted it so the float is real lean. I installed it and took it for a ride. I did put the needle back to the center. Which is the best for the way I like to ride. I think I could stand another step up on the main, but we will see! Well, with the air screw out 2.5 turns, I still could not get an idle. But, hey, it quit smoking  8)... I decided to take the carb out and try to drop the float even more *less fuel* and it still did not idle, but it cleaned the bottom up real nice, but it did not seem to have any power. So, I had a clear bottom end (well from idle to 1/8 was horrible, but 1/8-1/4 was responsive and no smoke). So, being annoyed like I was, I decided to experiment. I removed the seat and the air filter. No idle..... So, I decided to remove the air screw completely!   :x No idle. I then took my air compressor and blew air into the airbox while holding the throttle, hoping the forced air would help lean it up..... no idle!   :cry: This is with the idle screw in to the point of smashing the spring. So, I then return the 45 pilot and guess what!  :!: It idles! So, I return everything back to normal. It idles! But bearly, kinda puff puff puff puff then die. But, that is more than it was! With everything put to normal and the correct float (adjusted so so) it still idled but just like before, kinda slowly and roughly and the smoke returned, which does not bother me much.... So, I decided (since I have two), I would cut the spring like kawdude..  :D Returned the 52 pilot and got an idle. :-) But, you can tell, I believe it is a tapered (gas is coming from the needle instead of the pilot) idle. Kinda at my whits end. I think my next move, over the weekend, is to try to install the other carb (same exact carb, just dirty to hell).

So, back to square 1. I have gained alot of performance from the mid-top. I did make a few runs with the bike together and the idle screw (with half the spring) and it seems to surge a bit now. With the clutch in, kinda like the RPM's are normal then a surge of RPM for a split second. I'm assuming cause it does not like to be idled by anything other than the pilot.

Does anybody else cut the springs besides Kawdude and myself? Is that a normal idle? Or I'm assuming it should really idle even without the idle screw. But, who knows. I have the bike together and I am the same as yesterday just with a shorter spring and some idle. But, still wanting it to be correct. You know, nothing like the real deal instead of a rig.

On the bright side, I was riding my '97 cr250 and took a nice sliding turn and threw the chain into the crank and smashed it..  :D Oh well, I still want the KX to idle.  :roll:

kawdude

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Re: Jetting!!! Again and again and again!
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2004, 03:55:16 PM »
I hate to see you start with the other carb.  I think your pretty close but I understand your frustration.  The problem has to be in the floats or the float jet.  Is the rubber on the needle jet in good shape?
Somewhere I read that if you have to go past 2.5 turns out or less than 1 turn in then either the needle jet or the pilot jet needs to be adjusted up or down.

As far as the spring cutting goes, it is unorthadox but is done often.  I'm not saying that its right to do but if it works cool.  

Here's a thought...again just a free opinion!  Since this bike is 520 that changes what the carb was spec'ed out for by Kaw.  Now I think that the carb itself should be able to be adjusted for the cc change of 20cc.  But I don't know.  A 100cc change I could see that a different carb may be needed.  With the change the jetting chart Pitbull has provides is going to be off but still should be close.  The 42 pilot that you are running scares the heck out me.  I keeping looking for information for you and post what i find.  


Quote

it seems to surge a bit now

I have the idle surges also.  And I believe they are caused by gas getting into the cylinder when it shouldn't.  Such as when the slide is down mix is still coming in.  Possibly a wore slide.  I replaced mine and that didn't help.  Deal with the surges later by backing the idle screw out all the way so when you let off on the gas the slide is completely closed.  If it still happens there's a problem with the carb or slide.

Offline gowen

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Re: Jetting!!! Again and again and again!
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2004, 04:55:34 PM »
Hi Kawdude, I appreciate the info. Yeah, if I close the idle screw, it does not surge. Just with the screw all the way in about. :-) I will keep with this carb, but I was just planning on changing the carbs and keep the same slider, needle, float, jets, ect. ect. just thinking the carb might be toast or busted some how or another. Just wondering, they both are PWK39mm or whatever is stock. :-) So, it should not knock the jetting off I don't think, should remain the same. I hope.

The needle, I did check that, it seems to be working fine, I am not leaking fuel from the carb, except when I lay the sucker on it's side. I still have the 52 in there. But, I'd like to mayme try dropping to like a 30 and see if it idles then, I know I would never ride the bike with it that low. But, just for experiment purposes. I'm thinking maybe I have serious blockage in the carb and the cleaner is not letting it out. Because of the fact that forcing air in the carb, removing the air screw, AND removing the air filter is not helping at all, except maybe a few puffs of life. Adjusting the float did help the smoke, but did not seem to help the idling.

I'm sorry, I know I ramble on, but I really want to overcome this.... I don't want to give up.. I hope you don't mind me rambling on your forum Paul.

As far as riding though, idling is not stoping me. I am going to change the other carb into an experiment carb and keep the one on the bike for riding. :-) just change them out when I want to do serious riding, not trails. I really need a stretch of land to ride on, right now, just got about a short 400ft dash down some powerlines, but hills and smoothness helps alot! Just wheelies through the 3 gears I can run before running out of room.

I think cutting the springs was a good idea, but even though it idles now, it does not idle very long, it puff puffs and then dies eventually, but I can now pull in the clutch without it falling flat on it's face.  :lol:

I think I will try to change the carb, using the same jets and see if that helps, if not, I'm going to order the smallest few jets (30-40) and just try to find an idle the right way. I think I will go ahead and order a float adjustment tool, it costs like $19, but it's the shipping that gets me, I just wish I could find one now. I hate to wait for something I want done now.

But, my friend, the testing is yet to be completed.. I will try not to give up. I wish I could test another bike other than my only kx that runs. But, so it goes. Somebody has to do it. I would other bikes that I have, but they all IDLE!!!!!!!!!! grr.. The KX is the only one that has idling problems, I think I will have the crank pressure tested. But unsure how right now.

I won't be able to test tomarrow, but I can saturday evening and all sunday!!  :mrgreen: It's actually kinda fun to do this, but sometimes a PITA, especially when you feel at your whitsend. But, I have alot of ideas to try, I will pick up jets tomarrow while out at lunch. I am going to purchase all the jets between 170 and 182. I will also try and pick up the smallest pilots (30? if less will get them, from the smallest to like a 35 or whatever is close.  Then will pick up a 55. Just incase I find it is something else, I will never run anything other than idling for testing, not worth my motor. Just incase you guys were thinking I was sacrificing a motor. I'd not worry as much if I knew Eric Gorr had extras, but as we talk, it takes MONTHS for the motors to return.....

Kawdude, keep me posted, I appreciate your input, it helps me think and gives me ideas, I will also let you know as I progress and keep posting as I think. (as long as Paul lets me. :-) )

Offline Paul

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Re: Jetting!!! Again and again and again!
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2004, 05:39:40 PM »
Hey man spread the love, that's why I chose the type of forum I run here - SQL database backend type - to store large amounts of information for very long amounts of time ;) . We're here to help each other out, don't worry about how long a post is, we'll git 'er dun :lol:

Offline YUNGGUNNAZ

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Re: Jetting!!! Again and again and again!
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2004, 02:24:45 AM »
gowen,have you done a compression test yet if so what #'s did you get.
also a plug check.just to make sure everthing is ok up top.then to see why it aprears there low vaccum.fresh motors some time screw up or riders.when i do my motors crankcase seal is a priority.

Offline gowen

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Re: Jetting!!! Again and again and again!
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2004, 03:19:56 AM »
Hi Younggunnaz, I have yet to do a compression test. I will run one when I can get back to the lab  :lol:, er, garage. I did have the entire engine rebuilt at the same time, crankshaft (new), new crank bearings, new crank seals, new trans bearings, new trans seals, new shift forks, ect. ect. But, I understand that sometimes motors just screw up and mainly two strokes. I have to put this on the shelf until tomarrow, being Saturday evening, due to the fact that I have to make a trip to VA in the am to pick up a cusin. Then, be back for work, then I can hit it again.  :lol:

Anyway, thanmks again for the inputs. I'm thinking I might have low compression but...  :shock: d**n, that baby is hard to kick and it has not changed since I got it. But, who knows.

I had a thought, I was thinking a while back, before I changed the stocker pipe for the FMF, that I was out riding and I had the stock pipe crack right down the front and almost nearly fall apart, with a huge hole in it, it idles and pretty high! without running out of gas, I just remembered that. Maybe I need to check the KIPS operation, I imagine if it is stuck open it would also cause issues down low. I was reading the service manual like a bible last night before I went to bed. SO, I have a few ideas to brew and mix together.

Sharc

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Re: Jetting!!! Again and again and again!
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2004, 05:59:26 AM »
Gowen - good idea. With all the jetting combos you've tried and strange results it makes sense that something like a stuck KIPS could be the reason. Good luck and nice work on being persistent...!