Author Topic: Oil thoughts and questions - anyone heard of this?  (Read 6310 times)

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Offline dmg

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Oil thoughts and questions - anyone heard of this?
« on: February 03, 2009, 04:27:37 PM »
Anyone using Castor oil based premix any more?

I ran into someone at Chapparal today that gave me an ear full about oils. Here is what he said:

Castor Oil comes from plants, and this is what everyone used to use. The growing and harvesting of Castor oil slowed way down when they found out how to make synthetic oils that worked almost as good. Because the Castor oil plant is toxic, and required harvesting, most oils are now synthetic.

He said that the Castor oil is a superior lubricator. He said the oil sticks to everything in the engine better, and does not wash off with gas as easily. This prolongs bearing and top end life.

The other topic he brought up was about transmission oil. He said there are a number of grades of oil, and there are specific ones for motor cycle transmissions. SAE stands for standard automotive engineering. This is not good for wet clutches because they have abrasion inhibitors in them, and this can cause the clutch to slip. He highly recommended running an oil that had a MA -### on it. It was at the bottom of the label on the back. The racing oils didn't have it. The non racing oil of the same brand did.

He was not a store worker, and not a sales guy. He just offered the info as I was standing next to him by the oils.

Any comments or thoughts?

Offline KXcam22

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Re: Oil thoughts and questions - anyone heard of this?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2009, 06:13:49 PM »
dmg,
I think he is pretty close.  In the old days castor was superior to mineral oil as a lubricant. It's only downside was that it would separate out of the gas and tended to gum up rings.  Those are not an issue with new castors who have an addititves to prevent that.  However, when it comes to lubrication synthetics kick the crap out of castor oil.  They do not smell as nice. Nothing does.  Many synthetics run best at 100:1 while you won't find a castor that recommends much leaner than 40:1.  You have to keep in mind that oil brand is a personal choice - everyone has their favorites.  I'm a Belray guy and have used nothing but for more than 30 years -superior results. Again, personality and a bit of superstition involved.  Like many people, I have a selection of different 2-strokes at home (bikes, boats, weedwaker chainsaw etc) so to make life easy I run my 60:1 bike premix in all of them. There are many great oils out there. 

With respect to transmission oils the guy is also correct BUT its like running nitrogen in your car tires. There are some benefits for the cost, but air has worked just fine since tires were invented. Same for oil. The Jaso MA certification means it is for high friction use (ie clutch etc).  Sure it is better but how much better is debatable and regular motor oil has worked for me in my transmission since my first mini-bike.  The one area where I make sure I use a true motorcycle oil is in 4-strokes that share the engine and trans oil. These oils have something like 5X the anit-wear additives and have specific long-chain polymers that are meant to pad gears in a gearbox.  A lot also depends on the type of engine.  I don't feel bad running automotive oil in my sons XR100 but I use nothing but the best synthetic I can get in my 450.  Different stress levels on the engine mean using different classes of oil.  Hope I haven't confused you more.  For the KX500, I would suggest sticking with your castor oil until you feel like trying something else (or get tired of the spooge)  and using regular 10W30 car oil or ATF in the transmission.  Sorry for the sermon. Cam.

Offline Friar-Tuck

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Re: Oil thoughts and questions - anyone heard of this?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2009, 07:12:12 PM »
  We can divide 2 cycle oils into 3 basic categories; petroleum based, castor oil based, and synthetics. While a few oil companies market petroleum based 2 cycle oils, they are primarily for lawn mowers, small outboard boat engines, and other low-performance applications.
    Petroleum as a lubricant ? is a pretty good rust preventative. A quick look at a drop of petroleum under a high-powered microscope is enough to convince you not to put this stuff into a high-performance  engine.
    Even the highest quality petroleum oil contains a surprising amount of particulate material: little bits of gritty stuff that looks positively scary under a microscope.  Petroleum oil doesn?t burn all that well and leaves a lot of debris behind when it does.

Castor-based oils have been a favorite of high-performance tuners for more than a hundred years. In it?s most elemental form, it is the oil squeezed from Castor Beans (and its not significantly different from the vile tasting stuff  grandma used to cure constipation).   
 Today?s castor-based 2 cycle oils bring some extraordinary qualities to the table.
 Castor has by nature great film strength. That means it resists pressure between 2 surfaces without being squeezed out and allowing the surfaces to touch. This is especially important in a highly stressed 2 cycle engine.
  The point of contact pressures on connecting rod bearings in particular are almost unimaginable at high RPMs.
  Another of castor oil?s  qualities is what oil experts refer to as ?wetting ability.? Simply put, wetting is the ability of the oil to spread itself out to coat the entire surface of whatever it touches.
   (It?s the same effect that adding detergent to the water in the kitchen sink has, aids in breaking surface tension.  Just like the stuff for cooling systems.
  Some of you may be old enough to remember when oil for your car was advertised as ?Detergent? oil. Those oils had wetting agents in the addative package  to help the oil coat the inner surfaces of the engine for better protection from corrosion & break loose/down particulates.
    But alas, the report on castor oil as a 2 cycle lubricant isn?t all good.
    Some of the gums and other components that Mother Nature put in the castor bean don?t burn all that well and they can leave a gooey mess behind that can make piston rings stick in their grooves. And the parts that do burn can leave behind a significant amount of carbon on the piston crown and the inside of the head.  Most of today?s castor-based 2 cycle oils as described as being ?de-gummed or low ash? but that is really a relative term. They have less gum and leave less carbon than their non-de-gummed cousins, but it is still something the user needs to be aware of. One other negative you need to be aware of is that castor-based oils have a disturbing tendency to ?fall out" (separate) of solution in gasoline when they get below 50 degrees or so.   This is not an ?every time? thing and that may have to do with the various additives in addition to the castor oil in the oil bottle your using. But it is a significant consideration if your riding might include some cold days or nights.
  Snowmobile guys use specially formulated stuff for low temps, and there are blends for "injection" too.   
 
So let?s see, castor oil ?wets? very well, but it leaves a lot of carbon and gummy residue, . So why is it so popular with tuners and engine builders?
    Two words: IT WORKS. 

          But what about the 3rd category of 2 cycle oils; the synthetics.
 As the name implies, these are "cooked up" in the laboratory looking for compounds that offer excellent "lubricity", surface-wetting properties, and, in the case of 2 cycle oils, clean burning.
   These oils were originally based primarily on a family or organic chemicals called esters. By comparison to castor oils, these "new-generation" oils offered a number of advantages. Their solubility in gasoline and methanol made them easy to mix and to keep mixed. Unlike castor they did not deteriorate over time, either mixed with fuel or still in the bottle on the shelf. They also left fewer deposits behind when they burned. They are an excellent choice.
     The energy crisis, with its lines at gas stations and newfound interest in fuel economy, focused a lot of attention on synthetic lubricant research. Sunoco and Mobil Oil in particular made tremendous strides in developing oils that ,
   A: didn?t require petroleum as a raw material, and
   B: provided significant friction reduction to increase fuel economy. Their research spawned thousands of new companies developing and marketing a vast variety of lubricants and/or additives. These products greatly expanded the old ester-based synthetic lubricant sphere.
       By and large these new oils have a lot to offer. They have outstanding lubrication properties, they are highly soluble in both gasoline and methanol, and that solubility is not temperature sensitive, and they are exceptionally clean burning. That does not mean that every synthetic product can do everything it promises. I?ve heard some fairly outrageous claims and tried a few products, but there is also plenty of ?snake oil? out there.
  If you stick with one of the top brand-name synthetic oils, you?ll likely be very happy with the performance.

The cleaner burning properties of these synthetics mean that the ritual cleaning of pistons and rings that was  part of the castor- based world not all that long ago has been reduced significantly.
          (I'm not sure if you all would like the "White Paper" stuff or not )
     I'll try to post up on tranny fluid tomorrow...it's past my bedtime & I'm Pooped!

Tuck\o/
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 10:36:21 AM by Friar-Tuck »
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Offline KXcam22

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Re: Oil thoughts and questions - anyone heard of this?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2009, 02:37:32 AM »
Tuck,
 Good write-up.  I have to agree with the low carbon aspect of synthetics.  I got 14 years out of my K5 top end (est 400hrs -but singletrack so not as engine stresssing as others).  I had NO carbon -None, and much less than expected wear. It works. Looking forward to the 2nd part Tuck. Cam.

Offline 3Razors

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Re: Oil thoughts and questions - anyone heard of this?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2009, 03:19:15 PM »
I have seen repeated dyno tests of bikes jetted correctly with castor based oil such as Maxima 927 run at 20-32:1 make 3-4hp more than the same bike with correct jetting for 50-100:1 with synthetic 2 stroke oils.

Also KX500 is not a exactly a high-rpm engine.  They are usually hanging their tonque out around 8k rpms so you can squeek by with running 50:1 or leaner.  But if you had a 125 or 250cc motor on a roadrace or drag they turn considerable higher rpms in the 12K range so more protection/oil is needed.  There are alot of variables and no oil is perfect for everything.  Another note is I would avoid synthetic oils if you live in wet/damp climates as they dont provide the rust protection of castor on the internals of a motor.

Offline Friar-Tuck

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Re: Oil thoughts and questions - anyone heard of this?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2009, 04:29:37 PM »
 Thanks Cam,   the more I learn, The more I learn I don't know...
Seek and you Shall find... :wink:   
        3  Razors,
 you are also correct, some of the fixed gear sprint cart engines run 14 and 16:1 . 
 I would however like to clarifiy that these are built and jetted to be run that way.
The longer you hold the throttle WFO the more oil you need.
 
  You also make a good point on Rpm. 
 Supposedly there were three cyl. 50cc Suzuki's and four cyl. 125cc Yamaha Road Race bikes  that could produce upwards of 40hp... with 10 to 18 speed gearboxes
   AT 18,000rpm!   :-o  the powerband was razor thin, and the pilot must have been banging through the gears at a ferver pace.
  The harder you're working the engine...the more oil you need =)
 I have found just plunking along singletrack, some hill climbing  now and again and a few short WFO blasts  ( probably a mile or so) I have settled with 40:1.
   Please don't think I'm Telling ANYONE "YOU SHOULD RUN 40:1!!!"
  We Have all read that kind of stuff....Oy-Va...
    I had run up to 60:1 with no problems, but how much am I really saving by running that lean..  :?
   The most important thing seems to be dialing in a set-up for your application.
        (I'm still not happy with a Gear Oil, MA., JASO explanation yet..please..stand by)
  Tuck\o/
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 04:57:58 AM by Friar-Tuck »
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Offline KXcam22

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Re: Oil thoughts and questions - anyone heard of this?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2009, 06:07:32 PM »
The main thing to keep in mind is to run what you want for oil - theres no real right and wrong.  When I started with Belray MC-1 (synthetic) in 1979 its recommended ratio was 85:1 on the bottle.  I got 52 pro MX races on a top end on my air cooled Maico 400 at 85:1.  I was a believer after that and have never gone back. That is why I beleive what I do although I run a more sedate 60:1 (actually thats not true anymore since I am running 200:1 in my 4-stroke). But thats another story. Cam.

Offline martinfan30

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Re: Oil thoughts and questions - anyone heard of this?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2009, 01:56:47 AM »
Great info guys. I will be switching to synthetic (unsure of which yet) after my quart of 979 is exhausted. I didn't know about the problems with oil protection dwindling, and the sticky ring thing with using Castor.

It's also 14 bucks a quart here at the shop.
2000 KX500
2005 XR650L

Neither are stock, and both are great desert bikes.

Offline Friar-Tuck

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Re: Oil thoughts and questions - anyone heard of this?
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2009, 09:54:42 AM »
  DMG, Martin  you may find this interesting also:
  Gordon Jennings was a guy who knew what he was talking about.
This has the info 3Razor was refering to as to oil ratio and hp.
   http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com/documents/oilpremix6.pdf

     Martin, there are some blended synthetic/castors out there you may want to consider.    Best of Both? 

 http://www.maximausa.com/technical/lubenews/lubenews2000.PDF
http://www.blendzall.com/
http://www.klotzlube.com/storeCats.asp?ci=4
http://www.maximausa.com/products/2stroke/castor927.asp
   Tuck\o/
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 10:25:17 AM by Friar-Tuck »
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Offline martinfan30

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Re: Oil thoughts and questions - anyone heard of this?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2009, 01:11:14 PM »
Thanks for the link. The 927 is the one I'm using currently. I thought it was 979.

BTW, what is "DMG" in your opening?
2000 KX500
2005 XR650L

Neither are stock, and both are great desert bikes.

Offline dmg

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Re: Oil thoughts and questions - anyone heard of this?
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2009, 03:28:04 PM »
DMG is my initials

Thanks for all the responses. I need to go read those links now.

Offline Friar-Tuck

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Re: Oil thoughts and questions - anyone heard of this?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2009, 05:34:48 PM »
  I've been trying to put together a trans oil post... :-(
 To answer the second part of D's  question,
  "He highly recommended running an oil that had a MA -### on it."

 DMG, The MA on the oil bottle means the oil has been tested and Safe to use
 In a Shared Gearbox/Wetclutch application.  (fourstroke crankcase/trans).
   That pretty much is it.

  I am gonna have to say that you won't go wrong following the Manufacturer recommendation on which gear oil you choose to use.   
   Every transmission oil thread I read ended up being locked...
The thread here on ATF Vs.Gear Lube has remained civil much longer than most.
    I'm gonna throw a few observations out there and you decide.
 If you feel you want to try something else its only a drain pan away... :-D
   
   
While I have every reason to believe that ATF is a good alternative to conventional gear lubes it has always left me with a lot of un-answered questions. I came across the following and I thought it was interesting. Even though it doesn't speak directly to the issue at hand, it does indirectly make a case for ATF in a high speed gear box, and addresses to a degree the trade off of viscosity.
Just something to ponder when you are stuck in traffic.

From the book LUBRICATION FOR INDUSTRIAL FACILITIES by Heinz Bloch
This is from the section on Gear Lubrication:

"The oil furnished to high speed gears has a dual purpose: Lubrication of the teeth and bearings, and cooling.
  Usually only 10% to 30% of the oil is for lubrication and 70% to 90% is for cooling.

For some reason, the high speed gear makes all the compromises when oil viscosity for a combined lube oil system is determined.
   Usually a viscosity preferred for compressor seals or bearings is selected,
 and gear life is probably reduced.
 The bearings in a gear unit can use the lightest oils available, but gear teeth would like a much heavier oil to increase film thickness between the teeth."
   
   ATF has a a couple of points in it's favor. 
It is originally engineered to work in a high temperature wet clutch gear box 
(around 210-280 degrees) .  That is what an automatic transmission is. 
 So its primary design goals are: to cool the transmission, serve as a hydralic fluid in the valve body, lubricate the gears and bearings, and keep particulate suspended to prevent damage. 
  I feel some compromises are made in the automatic transmission application.  One is viscosity, ATF has a viscosity in the range on ~7wt so that it can be pumped easily, flow through the valve body, and actuate the clutches and bands.
   A viscosity this low is, as has been stated,does not carry that good a film strength. 

Compared to a standard transmission, there are no "hard shifts" in an automatic transmission that necessate the thick strong films that a standard transmission requires.   ATF is definately lacking film strength compared to any gear lube.
 Granted, in a motorcycle, on dirt there is nowhere near the shock in the gear box that you would see in an automobile shifting at speed.  And of course the Borg-Warner series of transmissions(T-5, T-56) all use ATF as a lubricant.     
   So?    What's the answer? 
    Does ATF provide "enough" film strength For a dirt bike? 
I'll answer with an unqualifed maybe, but, gear oil is stronger.
 Another big difference is in high temperature stability.
   ATF "burns" at a much lower temperature then a heavy weight gear oil.
  ATF is designed to work in a cooled thermally stable environment, and it performs so many functions that its additives are a compromise.
  Standard gear boxes, including your motorcycle's are not externally cooled and can get quite hot with the addition of a clutch and fanning fingers.
 Thicker oils resists break down at high temperatures (for the most part).
   This is easy to answer though, if you're draining a fluid that is "burnt" then it is not heavy enough, or changed often enough.
 If your ATF is coming out clean and it smells good, then... you're cool.
        However, an  area briefly touched on that I think is critical is an oil's ability to resist shear.    Shear resistance and viscosity generally go hand in hand.  Motorcycle transmissions are generally shear friendly   (Straight cut gears) whereas hypoid gears (e.g. differentials) and, to a lesser extent, plain bearing surfaces, require higher viscosities to resist  shear.
  Resistance to shear is not temperature dependent; higher viscosities have been used in high temp applications due to the fact that viscosity changed excessively in common petroleum oils.   Synthetics are much more stable in that regard and do not require "high" viscosities to resist shear at elevated temps.  According to some information I found from Mobil Oil Co.,
  85Wwt gear oil has an SAE gear viscosity number.
  30wt engine oil has an SAE engine viscosity number.
  They have approximately the same SUS (Saybolt Universal Seconds) rating at both 40 and 100 degrees Celcius. 
 Remember when talking about "gear oil" they use different standards.
  80W gear oil (AGMA scale) translates into a 40W (10W-40 or 20W-40) SAE motor oil.
           (As a reference, 10W-40wt engine oil is equivalent to 75W-90wt gear oil and 15W-50wt engine oil is equivalent to 80W-90wt gear oil.)
  If 10W-40 has the same viscosity as 80wt gear oil,
 why buy the more expensive gear oil?
   The oil in the transmission has two perform three functions.
 Prevent metal to metal contact, remove heat, and suspend dirt.  Now because a two stroke transmission does not have filter to remove the dirt, the suspended dirt will become a problem.  Prevention of metal to metal contact is a combination of the oil film strength and  stability.
   Oil is basiscally a massive quantity of long polymer chains.  The structure of these chains are such that they do not interlock.   
  This is lubrication,  The strength of the chain film strength. 
  The factors affecting this capability are heat and intermolecual shear.  Heat causes the oil to expand.  When a fluid expands the amount of molecules in a given volume decreases.
   Result: the viscosity decreases and the protection of an oil film cushion also decreases. Now if the heat becomes too high the oil becomes volatile. 
  The polymer chain breaks down then it gases off and you are left with the parafins and asphaultics in the oil.  (The wonderful black tacky stuff). 
  Shear is the second factor.  The more the fluid is cut by a rotaing element the more force is applied the long polymer chain.  Eventually the polymer chain fatigues and breaks.  (There goes the film strength).
  Lastly the highest contributing factor to wear is dirt.
 Dirt (can we say clutch particles) does not decrease the film strength or lubrication capability of the oil, what it does is displace the oil. 
    Dirt suspended in the oil takes up volume. So again in a given quantity there is less oil, ( in the long polymer chains) 
  A dirt particle is also much greater in size than a oil molecule and it has sharp edges.  So as the gears mesh the dirt gets smashed between the gear faces the sharp edge of the dirt displaces the oil. 
  Now we are getting wear. 
  So what to do?  Change the oil often!  Give it a break! Get rid of the Dirt!  If it is black or silver (aluminimum clutch plates) you are looking at dirt. 
  Think about it. The engine oil that comes in the Cyl with the gas is clean and every rotation of the crank expells some oil.
   (there goes the dirt and the broken down oil molecule) and brings in fresh oil.
 Not so the case with our tranny. 
        Will ATF do work?  Yep.    Will the cheapest 10w-40 from Wal-Mart work?    Yep. 
   Will the high dollar synthetic do this? Yep. 
              Which one is better? 
  Realistically, if you never run it long enough to break down, get full of dirt and it has the correct viscocity and heat index for the task at hand, all will work fine.  Some maybe better, but all will provide the needed lubrication.
   Most manufacturers recommend a multi-grade engine oil,
(the heavy thinking has already been done for us). 
      One other thing;
Friction Modifiers: the additives that bond to the surface of everything they come in contact with (flywheel and clutch discs is what we're concerned about).                   
          Friction modifiers are typically long chain organic acids that bond in a polar fashion to a metallic surface.    The organic chain side of the molecule stands off of the surface and holds a layer of oil.  These additives protect when the oil wedge is lost by keeping that tiny last bit of oil in place.
   Extreme pressure additives contain phosphorus, sulfur and chlorine.  The way these work is that when the oil film is over loaded and there is actual metal to metal contact, the additives weld themselves to the high spots (asperities) that are hitting together.  The additive welded to the metal is quite weak and breaks off easily. 
  This causes wear, but it makes the surface more smooth and ?broken in?. 
          This once again is a simplification of a pretty complex topic, but the more discussion and understanding the better.
     95% of the time the tight clearances are not where you will find the wear, down to the point of failure. The wear in a bikes gear box will mostly be found in the areas that call for thicker oil to soften the impact,     (Dogs,Shift forks and drum).
 I would think that thicker oil is a better choice. A bikes tranny does not have any real hot spots that cause seizures or bad scaring past the point of normal wear for the most part.
   (I know... There are always exceptions, like the rash of crf450-x Trannies  on bikes converted for street use afew years back)
    Here, Film strength is the key. And film strength must take into account the total package and not simply one aspect, such as viscosity.  Now you could have a 60wt that was chock full of additives, and may well be a good protector, but there are also things like corrosion protection, foaming, heat/oxidation resistance, etc..that also must be considered. Not to mention that it is a fact that the thicker the fluid, the less energy your dyno will see.  If you are racing at the top level of you field this could well be of great importance.   
Clutch baskets and shifter forks take lots of abuse. They are pretty much considered consumables.  And yes, perhaps a thicker fluid with a good additive package would allow them to remain alive a bit longer, but how much longer? And at what
expense?       If we saw lots of gear failures from such a fluid, I would be the first to say stay away, but we don't.
       Sure there is probably a better fluid to use other than ATF, but so often folks who do chose to buy the high-dollar boutique oils for $10-12 a qt. fail to change it out as often as they should.
  And no matter what fluid is used in a 2t wetclutch, the contamination that collects needs to be changed out fast. 
ATF might  provide better clutch action and shifting...
...at the price of increased wear and tear on the gears.
ATF has additives for clutch packs in automatic transmissions that do also help clutch action in dirt bikes.
Its is thinner than any gear lube I know so it can help a notchy bike shift better.
     I haven't found it has the gear cushion additives that gear lube does
 The design and action of our transmissions is a little different than an automotive automatic.
A cars Automatic Transmissions gear sets are made with very little clearance specs and have almost zero lash.  Also each gear set has its own set of clutches (called clutch packs).
   If I understand them correctly, when the auto trans shifts from one gear to the next it basicly releases one set of clutches (or band) and applys another, there is no sliding of gears or impact, in the transition of power from one gear set to another.
   This is why you almost never hear of your daily driver  automatic transmission breaking gears, and a automatic transmission rebuild kit is mainly a bunch of clutches and seals (not gears).
      On a Motorcycle the gears have alot of clearance and lash, they bang around back and forth and basically beat on each other every time you blip the throttle. A bikes transmission gears will wear no matter what kind of oil you use. It might not wear to the point of popping out of gear but if you visually inspect them after some use you will see signs of wear (unlike a automatic transmission gear which will show little to no signs of wear for the same amount of time used).
   What I'm basicly saying is a automobiles automatic transmission is built with very little clearance (very tightly) and this is why it can get away with such thin fluids as ATF.   On the other hand a motorcycles transmission is built with much wider tolerance, thats why its a good idea to run a oil with enough viscosity to help shield the gears from impact & metal to metal clashing.
     In the '70's a lot of racers used ATF to help with shifting and clutch action but also knew they were going to get increased wear and tear on the gears. This was an acceptable tradeoff.
         So the answer to which is better solely depends on how you ask it.
 Whats better for the gears? Gear lube hands down.
Which provides the better clutch action (and possibly shifting depending on the bike), the answer is ATF.
Suffice it to say that those of us that do not use ATF are as convinced that is not good; as those that are using it are convinced it is as good...
... and realize neither side will likely sway the other. Everyone needs to make their own decision and be happy with it..
  Oy-VA...
Tuck\o/








 

   
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 08:04:41 PM by Friar-Tuck »
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stewart

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Re: Oil thoughts and questions - anyone heard of this?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2009, 10:32:42 PM »
that is a great job of info gathering  friar,,  kawasaki  recomends  10 w 30 motor oil  ,,,and i belive they are very smart and right for  this,,they not only build the bike and all its parts but have the insight off world wide feed back  about  how the bikes  are working  out,,if after 20 years of k5 building  they still recomend this,,,, i am with factory kaw on this  ,,,and will not create a unknown  for myself because some one saw trans fluid on sale,,
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 01:50:07 AM by stewart »

Offline martinfan30

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Re: Oil thoughts and questions - anyone heard of this?
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2009, 01:52:13 AM »
Wow, excellent article!

That makes up my mind 110%. I have always questioned the ability of ATF to "cushion" gear clash, and dog engagement.
The ability of ATF to better lubricate a bearing is minor IMO. I'd rather replace a bearing than pay for a gear.

I'll stick with Gear Saver 85W.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 01:53:59 AM by martinfan30 »
2000 KX500
2005 XR650L

Neither are stock, and both are great desert bikes.

Offline KXcam22

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Re: Oil thoughts and questions - anyone heard of this?
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2009, 04:28:21 AM »
Tuck,
  Fabulous writeup.  I would say that the only downside to runing expensive trans oil would be the temptation to keep it in there longer.  I know on my K5 the small bearings on the water pump shaft were trashed from the aluminum contamination from the clutch plates.  Changing the oil oftern would help that. Good artical Tuck. Cam.