death of the two stroke

[BDI]

As with the progression of life all things must come to an end.  Don't get caught never having you or your family enjoy a 2-stroke in your lifetime because my childrens children may never get the chance.  They will be gone, or at least so hard to maintain with parts that they will become show pieces.

Do not rule the two stroke out, all It would take Is some one who can ride to role up on a direct injection 250 two stroke that weighs 20 pounds less than anything else and hand every one their arse, to sway peoples opinions. Do some reading on the direct injection two strokes that they are making right now and then imagine what they will have In just five years. what wins on Sunday Is what sells on Monday as the old saying goes. Do not be surprised If companies like Honda are working on stuff behind closed doors In fact you can count on It. Companies like Honda do not like to be caught with their pants down and they will research something just incase It's possible. I have read pleanty of stuff about the research that Honda did In the seventies that was top secret at the time. They can be as secretive about stuff as are government can be with their area 51 crap.

[eprovenzano]

I agree with BDI.  I would love to see a top pro on a 2 smoker with EFI.  When I watched the race at Steel City, I watched Ryan Villopoto go down with a pile of other riders in the 1st turn in race one, only to torch the course and charge all the way back to 3rd.  In the 2nd motto, he put on a clinic...  Holeshot to flag, he is amazing.  I would love to know is it the rider, or is it the bike...  put him on a EFI 2-stroke, and lets find out.  I think he would increase his lead even more with a bike that weigh's 20 pounds less.

As for the big boys Bubba Stewart was out for this race, but I think Bubba would win no matter what he rode...  He would be competitive on a KX 100...   So with out Bubba you knew it would be a open field.  Since the power of the bikes are so close, it comes down to the rider and some luck.  If a 2 stroke 250 with EFI would give a rider a slight edge, riders would be flocking to them.  I think they would be competitive with the 4-stroke.  But If the 2 strokers are EFI, I'm sure the 4 strokers as be as well....

The only way 2-strokes are going to be competitive is if the AMA reduces the displacements of 4-strokes to 200cc and 400cc or allow 144cc and 275cc.  But unfortunately, we all know that is not going to happen.

[don46]

Several years back, prior to the 4 stroke explosion, Ho**a R&D a two stoke with direct injection and a host of other goodies, the end result was a cleaner running 2 stroke. You may remember the article it was in one of the bike mags. I believe that if emissions are truly the issue, a cleaner burning 2 stroke could be developed. One of the previous posts mentioned that 2t had reached the end of development potential and so the mfg had to come up with a better mousetrap, ok a different mousetrap.

There was also a post saying that there was less maintenance to a 4 stroke, take it from somebody that both, the 4 t requires waaaay more maintenance than the 2t.

There is a place for both, and it is a shame the development has ended on 2 t from Japan.

One other thought, A couple of years back a Yamaha dealer I know, told me the they had a 125 and 250 in development that would kick the 450 a$$, and that once the hype died down they would be released. The idea being, as a racer there would be a 125, 250, 250f, and 450 class and now as a parent little johnnie needs 4 bikes to compete as opposed to 2, hmm maybe there is something to it, I  don't know.

[hughes]

The AMA and the FIM are currenlty putting the heat on the major four brands to build and R&D a 350 cc 4 stroke for the permier class. The AMA and FIM are reporting that the big four strokes are tearing up the track and most riders can't ride the bike at top level. This talk has showed up in Cycle News and Dirt Rider mags this year. After I rode my buddies YZ450F I came to realize why their is so much hype around four strokes. I was riding the bike with less stress and less input from me. The power / torque from the 450's is unmated as in a sense of being easy to ride (no clutch needed to keep it in the power band just roll the throttle). I love the 2 stroke power and feel it will be around for several more years. The 1998 YZ400F with Doug Henry winning the outdorr title started it all.

[eprovenzano]

I have heard the AMA is pushing for a 350.  I've also heard they would like to phase out the 450.'s just like they did to the 500's.  If I recall they claim the bikes are too fast have too much horsepower.  (Isn't that the same reason for the demise of the 500's?).  If you consider a supercross race, do they ever get beyond 3rd gear?  Outdoors there is a little more room to open it up, depending on the track.  If the AMA gets their wish replace the 450 with a 350, the 250 2-stroke will be looked at strongly as a viable racing machine.  All bike MFG?s will be pouring $$ into R&D of the trusty old 2 stroke.

I hope it works out? 

[dmstarr]

its just sad the AMA is siding with the MFG industry instead of the riders they are supposed to protect and help.

The riders (customers) are the ones buying the big four strokes! Without a market, the companies won't invest more R&D/production dollars into two strokes. Now, don't get me wrong. I ride two storkes. My boys ride two strokes. I love 'em, and wont buy a thumper. I'll go Euro before I go 4T.

The AMA and the FIM are currenlty putting the heat on the major brands to build and R&D a 350 cc 4 stroke for the permier class.

Yes, the FIM wants to impose a 350CC maximum displacement, regardless of engine configuration. The AMA, in word, is getting on board. However, there has been no action on the AMA's part to indicate any real commitment to this recommendation.

Fact is, the Euro companies (GG, KTM, and HUSQ) are still developing the 2T. Using direct injection and/or improved crank bearing materials, they are already testing bikes to run at a 1% mix. The Japanese companies will follow suit, but it may be a few years before we see the fruits of their labor.

[BigGreenMachine]

Bombardier is making clean burning 2T sleds. 1000cc monsters. It will be years before you see them switch over to a full fourstroke lineup. Even then you will never get a fourstroke sled that will match the old 2T Rev/Firecat.

The potential is there, EFI two stroke quads/dirtbikes are well within manufacturer capabilities.

Like was previously stated, its a money racket. Four stroke rebuilds will make dealers and manufacturers millions.

Two strokes won't. Emissions are just an escapegoat (sp?).

 

[BDI]

If they make a 350cc class they are only going to hurt the little guy. The bikes will still be fast as hell but they will be so high strung that the only ones who will be able to afford to maintain them and be cometitive are the factory guys. The privateers will not be able to compete. I wonder If It Is possible that they are trying to force the factories to bring back the two stroke

[Hillclimb#42]

 I'm confused about the reasoning, also. Some people out there are thinking its the noise, but the 4-strokes are a higher decible with a lower tone. Thier sound carries alot further. Others think emissions, but like you guys are saying... what percent of our pollution is directly related to recreational vehicles? Some might reason that the MPG's of a 4-stroke make it a more effecient for our fuel shortage. Then why are hybrid cars not allowed in the US if they are too effecient? Thats right, if a electric or hybrid car is above something like 35 mpg's, its not allowed to be sold in the US. I've also heard that it is a demand thing. Hows that? Only the wealthy can afford to buy a new 4-stroke, maintain and modify it. I think it comes down to the almighty dollar from our Manufacturers. Bikes, Parts, upgrades, maintenance, absolutely all of it is more money for a 4-stroke. Oh yeah, and the conservitive jokers from California, who are down on anything fun are masters at shifting the blame and appearing to be taking some serious action while doing absolutely nothing to the root of the problems. Anyone can be a critic. And anyone with enough money can broadcast thier critisisms, but it takes a genious to make real effective changes. Too bad we are short on those.
  In states like Kentucky, West Virginia, Tennessee, Illinois, Michigan, some in Indiana, and I'm sure plenty of other states, they have state organized ORV trails. Rules are simple stay on the marked trails and no trailblazing. This is their fix to random destruction of national forest property. Why doesn't that mentality work everywhere? Designate places to ride and give struggling communities some tourism, and they can even charge for weekend or yearly permits to stimulate local government cash flow.
  Everyone, who is concerned about this trend, needs to become an AMA member and push for your right to ride.

[MadKaw]

thats what the customers are buying because thats what is regulated by the AMA to be raced.

its just sad the AMA is siding with the MFG industry instead of the riders they are supposed to protect and help.

The riders (customers) are the ones buying the big four strokes! Without a market, the companies won't invest more R&D/production dollars into two strokes. Now, don't get me wrong. I ride two storkes. My boys ride two strokes. I love 'em, and wont buy a thumper. I'll go Euro before I go 4T.

The AMA and the FIM are currenlty putting the heat on the major brands to build and R&D a 350 cc 4 stroke for the permier class.

Yes, the FIM wants to impose a 350CC maximum displacement, regardless of engine configuration. The AMA, in word, is getting on board. However, there has been no action on the AMA's part to indicate any real commitment to this recommendation.

Fact is, the Euro companies (GG, KTM, and HUSQ) are still developing the 2T. Using direct injection and/or improved crank bearing materials, they are already testing bikes to run at a 1% mix. The Japanese companies will follow suit, but it may be a few years before we see the fruits of their labor.

[hughes]

Platypus wrote: Sorry to go KTM on this thread but I think it is relevant since they are the only company out there still trying with 2-strokes.

Some truth to this statement. KTM has figured it out that they can sell the 2-stroke in the off road racing world. They take their 2-stroke and sell them harescamble ready with suspension geared toward off road not motocross, kick stands, head and tail lights, and engines are designed to make power for harescamble type riding or racing. Yamaha seems to be moving forward with the 2-strokes, when everybody was saying two strokes are dead Yamaha come out with new almun frames for the 125,250. But Yamaha is still marketing these bikes toward the motocross market and the moto crowd doesn't want them. If Yamaha would design the current YZ250 for the off road market and design some of the feature into that bike and market as KTM does theirs they would be hard to beat. All the Jap bike companies need to switch their 2-stroke design over to offroad racing and quit offering these bike to the moto crowd.