ceramics and i don't mean fine china

[mdw471]

Hello All!

Before I started asking a bunch of questions, thought I would mention something that i hadn't seen many posts about....

bugle charge.....ceramic coatings

http://www.swaintech.com

this is just one of the many many different sources for ceramic coatings, but they have a great website! product explainations and prices are listed

the first time i saw this stuff was with aircooled road race yamahas in ahrma...the ceramic helps the stock motor deal with the heat much more efficiently!! the top of the piston and the inside of the dome are coated.

the pistons came directly from the motor tuner, so i don't know where he had it done, but swaintech seems to have a good reputation.

with proper squish and compresion, it really made a difference...both in performance and longevity!

jus trying to start out on a positive foot, before the onrush of KX500 questions!!

Mark

[Friar-Tuck]

MDW,
 I have been wondering the same things, another Idea crossed my mind.
What about the diamondlike coating (TiN) and the like for the tranny and bearings.
 Unfortunately the lack of funds have kept all this to nothing more than bench racing.
Tuck \o/

[mdw471]

Hey Tuck

Sorry for the delay in this reply, i was at the local wisconsin supermoto races with Sperbikers2

Like everybdoy, I try not to waste tooo much money on trying things, but the cost of coating the piston and head is cheap. especially when you consider that the price isn't that much different than a new top end kit

it is a real pain if you have already cut the squish....maybe impossible

i don't know about the return on coating the trans, sorta seems like hitech for the sake of hitech. really cool but way out of my league! i really like the fact that the ceramic greatly increses my chance of completeing a weekend without a mechanical!!!

what do you think stewart and doordie??

or am i talking about something that i shouldn't be ?!?

Mark

[maddoggy]

i had a friend mention this coating to me about a year ago, but at the time i didn't give it much thought. since then i learned that the guy who pioneered it tested it and leaned the engine out so much that he found peak dynoed power. he countinued leaning it out til it started losing horsepower, which would normally burn the thing to the ground. i believe the internal eng. temps were around 1200 deg. I know it sounds like bull but its not. the coated components held up with little to no damage done at all. I wish i had fact to post but i will try to research the subject and post the findings or maybe a link to info. MADDOGGY

[maddoggy]

mdw471, did you have this done to one of your own engines and if so did you see any performance related benefits besides longevity of the components? thanks, MADDOGGY

[mdw471]

maddoggy

the first bike that I had ceramics on was my AHRMA aircoooled rd race bike and since then more rd's and an lc and now the kx500...

the ceramic does not increase the performance in the same manner that raising the exhasut port does...if the only thing you do is ceramic, i am not sure you will notice anything...maybe a bit of an up in compression and tightening the squish band a touch because of the thickness of the material.

the performance increase comes from improved heat management....examples

with the aircooled bikes they would pull as hard the last lap at Mid-Ohio as it did the first lap.

if the heat is controlled the cranking psi and general state of the motor 'tune' can be wound up tighter without worring about holing pistons, etc.

it also allows for a more forgiving dumb cluck factor....ping ping ping ping on the back straight can end in one of two ways

silence and a thirty minute wait to ride in the crash truck back to the pits

or in a ceramic world

jeez i wonder if that is timing or jetting, better gimp it into the pit next time around and figure it out.

and final, once again, a comment about my true love for ceramics...longevity

as i have been reviewing old posts and learning heeps about the kx along the way...i found one from stewart that refers to 'coating the inside of his motor" i gotta believe he is talking about ceramics.....maybe he can refer the forum to the guys that do the work.

from personal experience and talking with everybody from gemini racing to nutzy ariplane guys the 'trick' to ceramics is application. the materials are 'relatively' cheap, but the adhesion is critical. the coating must not only bond to the alloy, but also similarly expand/shirk with heat and so it does NOT flake off like old paint on a storm window!!

hope this helps

Mark

p.s. so this guy yapping about ceramics used to road race an rd and then supermoto for a couple of years....can anybody guess what i am trying to do with the kx before i start asking a bunch of tuning questions regarding top end power

Mr. Doordie are you ready !!!!!

[stewart]

i think the coatings that are properly  done are not bad for protictive reasons..  but i have not seen a meusureable  power gain  trying coated parts agianst non coated 

[Mick]

I've used coated pistons for a number of years.  Umm...I don't know what words would do them justice?  Phenominal?  As far as the reliability aspect you cannot do yourself wrong spending the extra couple bucks.  I no longer even consider rebuilding an engine without coating the components first.  They got me hook line and sinker.  LOL...ok I should add I've never had to replace a coated piston.  Never.  The bikes have been sold before the top end needed rebuilt again.  I've used Swain Tech for Snowmobiles as well as bikes.  The KX500 has a Swain Tech coated piston in it right now.  With about seven years on it!  I just rebuilt the CR with Max Powers Apticoat treatment on the piston and head.  Time will tell if it matches Swain Tech dollar for dollar.

I can't speak for the power advantages they speak of, that's way out of my ball park.  But do consider this one reply you've read that claims they're unbreakable.

[doordie]

For reliability,yes!
For power a little gain maybe, but for your wally I say no...
I?m into bearings now and I think here we have something going on here,reduce friction,yes!
And not so much money to replace your bearings with new ones.

We have a company here in Sweden,(works with ?hlins),and they are coating and use ceramic balls in there bearings,very low friction.

www.vasatech.se

//Doordie

[mdw471]

Doordie

Where are you using the ceramic bearings....

wheel hubs, trans, and crank???
doesn't seem worth it for the head stem, but maybe?

by any chance, have you been keeping track of all the bearing sizes / numbers?

thanks

Mark

[gil2264]

Does the swaintech have to go into a smooth cylinder?  I have a few scores on the Exaust port side, and some chipping of the nikasil.  Will having the cylinder "Swainteched" repair the problem, or will i need to have the cylinder replated first.

Dan Gillman
   Gil2264@earthlink.net

[mdw471]

Dan

'Usually' we have only coated the top of the piston crown and the dome inside the head.

I am not sure if the piston would even fit if the ceramic was sprayed directly on the nika barrel. the swain tech website lists the application thickness, but i didn't fire up the calculator to math it out!

MArk