ATF as Gear Lube

[bigtwin100]

Paying $10 for a quart of any oil is obsurd.

[sniper1]

         I have to agree with you there big.

[Motorrad]

Paying $10 for a quart of any oil is obsurd.

Your right.. I pay  nearly $14..  I wont even scare you with the price of my 2T oil..
No i dont buy it from them. I get it localy at a price break....

http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/Product.jsp?skuId=304667&store=&catId=&productId=p304667&leafCatId=&mmyId=

http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/Product.jsp?skuId=304665&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse


ATF belongs in Automatic Trannys...

[DoldGuy]

Nothing Good is Cheap.....................and ............Nothing Cheap is Good 



You can save some Pennies only to learn it cost some Presidents 

[maddoggy]

This has been an interesting thread.
I have never tried ATF.
I have disassembled hundreds if not thousands of dirt bikes.
I have seen ATF to the newest synthetics and everything in between.
The bikes that come in that are clean and the air filters clean seem to be clean on the inside as well, regardless what is used as a lubricant.
The bikes that come in with caked on, baked on who knows what, with a air filter that looks like it was used as a chew toy for a pack of Rottweilers in a mud pit... typically they are very nasty on the inside.
True, the ATF bikes are very clean on the inside, usually a little cleaner than the more conventional lubed bikes.
Below is a pic of a YZ125 we were working on today that ATF was used in.
We haven't done any cleaning.
What you see is what it looks like immediately after the ATF was drained and the engine was disassembled.

The bike was true to form for a well maintained bike.
Yet, as far as gear wear.... I have seen no real difference between ATF and any other lube.
What seems to be the biggest factor to gear wear is the gear lube not being changed often enough.
The second thing we see is poor shifting habits.
So, what ever you use, change it often and pull your clutch lever all the way in, shift the bike in a positive manor, and then let your clutch out.
Your bike will live long and prosper 

i would venture to guess that not many of us have handled as many bikes as sandblaster has. his eyes have seen it all. if atf is good enough to run in a high torque transfer case on a 4 wd then it is good enough to run for a few hours in my bike. i have been running this oil since i've owned my k5 and have seen no ill effects. i honestly change oil after 2 good hard rides, or about 8 hours.

[Motorrad]

No offence to that picture, you, or sandblaster... As im not trying to argue, just pointing one thing out....,.. And that is... That photo proves nothing... It doesnt show were the K5 trannys wear...

You could have been running Laquor thinner, bleach, Canola oil.. etc and that case would still look like that... ..
(Bleach will actually out perform most oils in the Bearing load test)


Got to watch the Car trannys etc that run it... alot of them, the gears are cut differant...   

And as a point many have brought up...   Woods guys, low miles guys, will never have an issue with ATF...   

I have yet to meet a desert racer that runs it...  me included...
Think Tom Put it best...   

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on running ATF in their gearbox. If someone is happy with the performance of ATF in their gearbox, and they have had good success with reliability, then they should keep using it.

The perspective I take on running ATF is that it has been around long before the KX500 came along, and if the engineers that designed these transmissions would've thought that there was any advantage to running ATF, I would think they would've recommended it. Additionally if running ATF in the KX500 would increase the mean time between failures, I'm sure the factory race teams would've run this in the bikes racing the Baja 1000. A professional racer racing these bikes in the heat for a 1000 miles is tough on parts, and most peoples machine will never endure these conditions. With the racing community I used to be involved with it was common practice for a lot of us to race two to three times a month, some months racking up 300 to 400 off road between practice and racing, and gearbox problems were extremely rare. I didn't know anyone running ATF. 

[don46]

This has been an interesting thread.
I have never tried ATF.
I have disassembled hundreds if not thousands of dirt bikes.
I have seen ATF to the newest synthetics and everything in between.
The bikes that come in that are clean and the air filters clean seem to be clean on the inside as well, regardless what is used as a lubricant.
The bikes that come in with caked on, baked on who knows what, with a air filter that looks like it was used as a chew toy for a pack of Rottweilers in a mud pit... typically they are very nasty on the inside.
True, the ATF bikes are very clean on the inside, usually a little cleaner than the more conventional lubed bikes.
Below is a pic of a YZ125 we were working on today that ATF was used in.
We haven't done any cleaning.
What you see is what it looks like immediately after the ATF was drained and the engine was disassembled.

The bike was true to form for a well maintained bike.
Yet, as far as gear wear.... I have seen no real difference between ATF and any other lube.
What seems to be the biggest factor to gear wear is the gear lube not being changed often enough.
The second thing we see is poor shifting habits.
So, what ever you use, change it often and pull your clutch lever all the way in, shift the bike in a positive manor, and then let your clutch out.
Your bike will live long and prosper 

i would venture to guess that not many of us have handled as many bikes as sandblaster has. his eyes have seen it all. if atf is good enough to run in a high torque transfer case on a 4 wd then it is good enough to run for a few hours in my bike. i have been running this oil since i've owned my k5 and have seen no ill effects. i honestly change oil after 2 good hard rides, or about 8 hours.

Seriously, if the inside of my motor looked like that I would be concerned. I use Redline Gear saver, and sim months later the stuff is still everywhere it does not run off. I never got on the ATF band wagon and probably never will, if a person is a casual rider you can get away with it, but I think if you are truly using the bike you need something better than ATF. We run extended length, paddle tires and sometimes bolts with Nitrous so we want what will hold up and I don't think its ATF. in the late 90's early 2000's we ran many outdoor nationals and I can tell you that is abuse. I think if most people paid as much attention to their shocks as they do the tranny's they would love there bikes more, shock oil breaks down quickly, there is a suprising amount of heat generated by the friction of the componenets, hey maybe we should use ATF in the shock

[maddoggy]

No offence to that picture, you, or sandblaster... As im not trying to argue, just pointing one thing out....,.. And that is... That photo proves nothing... It doesnt show were the K5 trannys wear...

You could have been running Laquor thinner, bleach, Canola oil.. etc and that case would still look like that... ..
(Bleach will actually out perform most oils in the Bearing load test)


Got to watch the Car trannys etc that run it... alot of them, the gears are cut differant...   

And as a point many have brought up...   Woods guys, low miles guys, will never have an issue with ATF...   

I have yet to meet a desert racer that runs it...  me included...
Think Tom Put it best...   

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on running ATF in their gearbox. If someone is happy with the performance of ATF in their gearbox, and they have had good success with reliability, then they should keep using it.

The perspective I take on running ATF is that it has been around long before the KX500 came along, and if the engineers that designed these transmissions would've thought that there was any advantage to running ATF, I would think they would've recommended it. Additionally if running ATF in the KX500 would increase the mean time between failures, I'm sure the factory race teams would've run this in the bikes racing the Baja 1000. A professional racer racing these bikes in the heat for a 1000 miles is tough on parts, and most peoples machine will never endure these conditions. With the racing community I used to be involved with it was common practice for a lot of us to race two to three times a month, some months racking up 300 to 400 off road between practice and racing, and gearbox problems were extremely rare. I didn't know anyone running ATF. 

are you serious? gears in a car are cut different? i had no idea.

[Motorrad]

No offence to that picture, you, or sandblaster... As im not trying to argue, just pointing one thing out....,.. And that is... That photo proves nothing... It doesnt show were the K5 trannys wear...

You could have been running Laquor thinner, bleach, Canola oil.. etc and that case would still look like that... ..
(Bleach will actually out perform most oils in the Bearing load test)


Got to watch the Car trannys etc that run it... alot of them, the gears are cut differant...   

And as a point many have brought up...   Woods guys, low miles guys, will never have an issue with ATF...   

I have yet to meet a desert racer that runs it...  me included...
Think Tom Put it best...   

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on running ATF in their gearbox. If someone is happy with the performance of ATF in their gearbox, and they have had good success with reliability, then they should keep using it.

The perspective I take on running ATF is that it has been around long before the KX500 came along, and if the engineers that designed these transmissions would've thought that there was any advantage to running ATF, I would think they would've recommended it. Additionally if running ATF in the KX500 would increase the mean time between failures, I'm sure the factory race teams would've run this in the bikes racing the Baja 1000. A professional racer racing these bikes in the heat for a 1000 miles is tough on parts, and most peoples machine will never endure these conditions. With the racing community I used to be involved with it was common practice for a lot of us to race two to three times a month, some months racking up 300 to 400 off road between practice and racing, and gearbox problems were extremely rare. I didn't know anyone running ATF. 

are you serious? gears in a car are cut different? i had no idea.

Why do you think thre is Hypoid oil, HP oil, and regular gear oil...    The way the gear Wipes across itself changes the way the oil works....  Minor changes to gear tooth profile does alot of things.

My Old triumphs need HP oil, because they will wipe themselfs clean if you ran anything else.. so the Higher pressure aditives are needed to keep some film strength there..

Im leaving to go to the desert In 10min... when I get back, Ill take some HIGH REZ pictures of a old triumph gear, vs a K5 gear.... Lots of differances in tooth profile..

[maddoggy]

if i had any doubts about the oil i use then trust me, i would use something different. i do not run the baja 1000 on my bike so i see no need to use $20.00 a quart oil in my tranny. i should have known better than to input on this thread. excuse me, i need to go beat my head on the garage wall.

[maddoggy]

No offence to that picture, you, or sandblaster... As im not trying to argue, just pointing one thing out....,.. And that is... That photo proves nothing... It doesnt show were the K5 trannys wear...

You could have been running Laquor thinner, bleach, Canola oil.. etc and that case would still look like that... ..
(Bleach will actually out perform most oils in the Bearing load test)


Got to watch the Car trannys etc that run it... alot of them, the gears are cut differant...   

And as a point many have brought up...   Woods guys, low miles guys, will never have an issue with ATF...   

I have yet to meet a desert racer that runs it...  me included...
Think Tom Put it best...   

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on running ATF in their gearbox. If someone is happy with the performance of ATF in their gearbox, and they have had good success with reliability, then they should keep using it.

The perspective I take on running ATF is that it has been around long before the KX500 came along, and if the engineers that designed these transmissions would've thought that there was any advantage to running ATF, I would think they would've recommended it. Additionally if running ATF in the KX500 would increase the mean time between failures, I'm sure the factory race teams would've run this in the bikes racing the Baja 1000. A professional racer racing these bikes in the heat for a 1000 miles is tough on parts, and most peoples machine will never endure these conditions. With the racing community I used to be involved with it was common practice for a lot of us to race two to three times a month, some months racking up 300 to 400 off road between practice and racing, and gearbox problems were extremely rare. I didn't know anyone running ATF. 

are you serious? gears in a car are cut different? i had no idea.

Why do you think thre is Hypoid oil, HP oil, and regular gear oil...    The way the gear Wipes across itself changes the way the oil works....  Minor changes to gear tooth profile does alot of things.

My Old triumphs need HP oil, because they will wipe themselfs clean if you ran anything else.. so the Higher pressure aditives are needed to keep some film strength there..

Im leaving to go to the desert In 10min... when I get back, Ill take some HIGH REZ pictures of a old triumph gear, vs a K5 gear.... Lots of differances in tooth profile..

that photo of sandblasters is not what i was refering to. i was speaking about the facts he pointed out about the trannies he has torn down. no need to prove anything about gears to me. i was being sarcastic. i have seen more gears in my short life than most of you will in a lifetime. use whatever oil you want, i matters not to me. i use what i have proven to work for my application and that is all i need.

[Motorrad]

if i had any doubts about the oil i use then trust me, i would use something different. i do not run the baja 1000 on my bike so i see no need to use $20.00 a quart oil in my tranny. i should have known better than to input on this thread. excuse be, i need to go beat my head on the garage wall.

Maddoggy... I wasn't trying to argue with you, or say your wrong in any way... Just having a Gentlemanly conversation for the further benefit of everyone.. more facts out there, the more educated decision someone else can make one way or the other....
One of which is the picture of the cases shows nothing of wear, miles, load, etc... 

Like I said before... Ill plow 200miles in a weekend...   Little different than most people...

[mdw471]

For whatever anyone thinks/believes this might be worth....

A few years ago I had the chance to corner an oil 'expert'. It was great. He was extremely practical about the mechanics of oil.

When I brought up motorcycles, he brought up airplanes! Pointing out that airplanes, automobiles, and motorcycles typically operate at three different RPM ranges. His point was that oils are designed/formulated to withstand different 'shear' stresses...the oil is worked differently in 3200 - 4500 - 10000 RPM motors.

Mark

[sniper1]

         An automatic transmission has planetaries not gears and uses fluid pressure to apply pressure to the disks so it seems like putting atf in a manual transmission would be more like putting it in a 2 stroke tranny.

         I don't want to insult anyone or flame anyone so I'm just asking here and while my riding ability is above average my mechanical skills are fairly weak but I have owned a couple 500 and 600hp twin turbo 7.3 trucks and had 3 trannys go out when truck pulling then finally purchased a 7k ATS transmission so I am more familiar with the truck trannys. The ford trannys pre 03 had aluminum planetaries and when they got hot the grooves would fail since they were on steel input intermediate and output shafts but ford fixed that and ATS uses all billet planetaries and shafts so no problems.

My truck I just sold and this shows start to finish everything painted plated or polished even the frame and axle housings even springs were powdercoated and 4.10 gears front and back locker in back tru-trac in front best of everything.

http://rides.webshots.com/album/549551609pmDqVO

[Friar-Tuck]

Hey Martin,

If your motor is apart polish the channels. For the shift forks a.d the shift forks their eels and run slick 50 though.

  I have a few very good friends from the south.  I'm pretty sure the translation is:

 "Completely Polish the drive shaft and the out put shaft. 
 Polish the inside of the gears (where they ride on the drive shaft and the output shaft) , and the shift forks themselves, and their ends. 
 Put the engine together with Slick 50 instead of just motor oil "

 
 Tuck\o/