ATF as Gear Lube

[Hillclimb#42]

 Thumbs down to the ATF. I tried it in both bikes, 250 and 500. Both bikes have had trouble with tranny. (Transmission not a he-she  ) I had the 250 try to seize and the 500 actually did. My kx tech said that the kx stock clutch plates are aluminum and that causes alot of oil contamination. That the transmission in a kx needs oil changed alot to minimize problems along with changing to steel plates. The gears can actually seize right on the shaft without proper lubrication. Too coincidental for me to think the atf had no part it in it.
  The 250 was stuck in gear after a crash, and eventually freed itself. The 500 seized while warming it up, staging for a near vertical hill climb. I was in neutral giving the Waaang, bang, bang, bang.... then screech. She lurched forward and died all the while in neutral. I could only push it around if I pulled in the clutch lever. Cost 225 to split cases and fix it. Thats enough experimenting for me with that. Also would like to add the note, Stewart is not an ATF fan. Wish I would have noticed that before hand. Well back to 10w30 for me.

[Jeeks]

How often did you change the tranny fluid?

I've been using ATF in my KX250's since 98 and have not had one iota of a problem.  I'm pretty hard on the tranny too.  I buy ATF type F by the case and change it about every 2-3 rides which calculates to about 5 hours of running time.

If you changed from 10-30 to ATF, you should have changed it on very short intervals to clean out the residual 10-30 before running the ATF for any long period of time.

[hughes]

Bought some type F. Ready to try it out on my k5 and 250. I have trouble with them both, when I want to shift to neutral. They want to go 2nd to first , first back to second, I can hardly get them into neutral without killing the motor. The 250 wants to go to neutral only when I don't. My engine builder said he puts a stronger spring in them to hold them in gear better, so maybe thats the deal. My size 13's have no trouble shifting thru the gears otherwise, but I'm hoping the ATF is going to be the trick. I 'm also kinda hoping to get a few more r's out of them, as it seems the motor would run a little more free.
  PS. Noone else I've talked to has ever heard of using it in anything, but 50 auto's. Dare to be different, I'll let you know of the results.
  Results update. Shifts smoother, goes into neutral easy. I only put  it into the 250. The 500 will be getting it for next race. It likes to pull some when in gear and clutch is in. We'll see if it helps that too.

From reading this post it appears you had issues already inside your tranny other than the spring that the engine builder may have installed. ATF didn't cause your failure.

[Hillclimb#42]

Maybe not, but the gear did seize on the shaft, and I changed every time I rode more than an hour, and every other hill climb. Same when I ran the oil. My guy said it was full of crap, and I had less than 20 hours on the bike since complete rebuild. I'm actually shocked at the results myself. I personally also saw a heavy coating of carbon on top of piston. We run 6 bikes on the same fuel with no carbon after a year or two of riding. Its jetted stock and runs awesome. My kx expert gave me the same lecture of changing oil frequently, and didn't really say ATF was bad, just that motorcycle transmission oil is better. And he's the one who had to press the gear off the rod or whatever.
  I could use the same arguement that I have ran oil for several years with no transmission trouble. And I do not know if it was already there or if it was the mixing of the two. It just seems hard to imagine that it works so much better and seized on the shaft after putting probably the third or fourth qt in it since swapping, It could also be the type of racing that I'm doing. Warm up, pin it for 4-12 seconds and park it. I doubt that many of your rides are that way. It would no doubt do my bikes a favor to ride them longer.
  Noone else had transmission problems or did and think its from something else other than trans lube?

[Jeeks]

You hillclimbers are supposed to be on the forefront of invention. 

Maybe have the tranny/gear/shaft modified to accept a oil grooved bushing or even a roiller bearing? 

[holeshot buddy]

atf in general is a good oil for gearboxes
and clutches
you must change it every ride if
you have alloy plates in clutch
the only negative i have seen
is long term use wear on gears and shafts
the hardening goes off them
but it is long term
i also have a yz465h and i can only run it on atf
or the clutch slips

[Hillclimb#42]

My guy did mention that the aluminum plates will contaminate a transmission and that he would always run steels. Hillclimbers may have to be on the forefront of invention, and thats why I get on here to add to the pool of info. I still have to have work farmed out to stay in the realm of reasonable risk. I could start o-ringing heads or splitting cases and working on transmissions, but that is a risky endeavor when I have no experience with these things and a race most weekends. I just want to know what my guy is basically doing when I drop off my motor. I don't want to just tell him to do whatever it takes to fix it. Its my understanding that the gears don't have bushings or grooved for lube, but is a rare problem that I had. Its scary though to have that squeal, while in neutral and then all locked up like that.
  What about a way to flush debris and goop from transmission? Would it help clean it to drain after the motor is warmed up? or lay the bike over for say 10-15 mins?

[BDI]

I ran aluminum plates in my k5 for years and years with no problems at all. The only thing I can really say about the aluminum plates being bad is they wear faster then the fiber plates. Other then that they have less rotational mass and they don't wear out the clutch hub. Steel plates are very clutch hub hungry and add 65% more weight ( over the aluminum plates)to the clutch.

[bigbellybob]

the fact that the alloy wears fast is why they contaminate the fluid so fast. its going to get the 10-30 contaminated just as fast as the ATF. i was a the guy that would never run anything in my bike but 80w wet clutch gear oil. after running B&M trick shift full syn there is no going back. i always had problem shifting through neutral. after the switch shifting seems smoother and i have not accidentally hit neutral. it also seemed to free up some extra pony's. i recently watched a 5.0 mustang go low 10 looking into the 9's with a T5 transmission filled with AFT that sealed the deal for me.

[BDI]

I still do the 80wt thing but after many, many years of good luck with it I'm scared to try something else. My trany is a very expensive and trustworthy partner in my life. I don't feel the need to go experimenting with it. I can't recall ever losing a race and saying, d**n it if only I had different tranny oil.  I have conciderd using mobile one full synthetic gear oil like you would put in the rear diff of a car or truck but I'm not sure if it would be clutch compatible.I havn't even done the research It was one of those passing thoughts.

[bigbellybob]

I can't recal ever losing a race and saying, d**n it if only I had different tranny oil.

i say that looking back at times i hit neutral. besides you would have to lose a race first before you could say that

I personally also saw a heavy coating of carbon on top of piston.

are you contributing that to ATF in the gear box?

[BDI]

Come on Bob I lose races some times. Rick beat me by a whole tire last time we were at the dunes.

[stewart]

i run only ..  30 wieght non synthtic moter oil  like,,valveoline  my trans looks perfect inside..  i have lots of these transmisions  apart  some of the gears in the k5 trans are not bushed like a car automatic there steel on steel .. i also use clutch kits that have steel plates,,,not aluimnium  like stock.. what does  factory kaw recomend 

[BDI]

i run only ..  30 wieght non synthtic moter oil  like,,valveoline  my trans looks perfect inside..  i have lots of these transmisions  apart  some of the gears in the k5 trans are not bushed like a car automatic there steel on steel .. i also use clutch kits that have steel plates,,,not aluimnium  like stock.. what does  factory kaw recomend 

 
   I'm now runing a factory clutch kit in my bike, they are supposedly the same guys that have been making the clutches for the Japan factories forever hence the name. The kit has kevlar fiber plates and steel metal plates with springs that take man strength to pull. I have chosen to go with with the trade off of weight and clutch hub life for a kit that will put up with the horse power. I think if you go buy stock stuff you will get aluminum plates.

[Hillclimb#42]

I personally also saw a heavy coating of carbon on top of piston.

are you contributing that to ATF in the gear box?
[/quote]
 
Naa. Obviously just rambling off symptoms that were odd. I put a hinson basket in it and new clutches and steels, ran with the magura hydraulic awhile ago, and its super smooth. It just had a weird failure while warming it up. Maybe coincidentally, shortly after changing to ATF, but I additionally had a bunch of stuff in there according to my mechanic, which seems odd with 20-25 hours of ride time. I had always ran 10w30 valvoline, until switching to ATF, which is the same price here, by the way.
 I can't make myself buy a case of oil thats 15 bucks a quart.( Synthetics) Maybe if it changed color when it needed changed after several hours of abuse. The problem is, you have to change frequently, to clear clutch fiber debris, check that the water pump seal is holding, and with my aftermarket crap to be sure theres oil in it. (No windows or check screws)  I don't know what caused the lock up or stuff in there. SUcked on the Timing, that I do know...